[Opinion] Usage of Dissociatives (possibly deliriants)

[Sukhoi]

I see alot of usage of LSD,Psilocybin,Mescaline,DMT and other psychedelics for spiritual experiences, but as someone who has tried multiple psychedelics, and a few Dissociatives and deliriants i dont see why they arnt more frequently discussed for such things,

I have tried heroic LSD doses 450ug as my record, same with psilocybin and ketamine. I believe that with for example ketamine, when you are out of your body you are just as prone to visuals or experiences that you would be prone to on psychedelics, however the nature of these experiences seems to be different and more often negative than insightful. You can have a ego death on ketamine and there are still some experiences id say you can not achieve on psychedelics.

About deliriants, i have only tried a medium dose of benadryl once. i had a horrid experience, im curious if anyone had a good one.

 

[Lu_CiD]

without the cultural context and knowledge that shamans train their who lives to attain the use of psychedelic medicines isnt as useful as you would think. it could be dangerous even. with any tool not having proper guidance in its use won't usually have good results.

as for deleriants they are the same even more so however that only goes for the plant based ones usually in the scoplamine family derives from devils trumpets, short apples and belladonna. diphenhydramine is useless and insanely bad your you besides increasing your risk for neurological disorders it.
all of them have a high risk for death or other permanent damage. and since we lost most of the knowledge on their use its just not worth dealing with.

ketamine. is the one thing that im more ok with its exploration since you cannot od on it and it doesn't really damage your body unless you take really high doses for a long time. may want tk look into Dr John C Lilys experiments. just be careful with anything you do and its often better to use the slow route because the journey itself is just as rewarding if not more so than the goal.

 

[Sukhoi]

without the cultural context and knowledge that shamans train their who lives to attain the use of psychedelic medicines isnt as useful as you would think. it could be dangerous even. with any tool not having proper guidance in its use won't usually have good results.

as for deleriants they are the same even more so however that only goes for the plant based ones usually in the scoplamine family derives from devils trumpets, short apples and belladonna. diphenhydramine is useless and insanely bad your you besides increasing your risk for neurological disorders it.
all of them have a high risk for death or other permanent damage. and since we lost most of the knowledge on their use its just not worth dealing with.

ketamine. is the one thing that im more ok with its exploration since you cannot od on it and it doesn't really damage your body unless you take really high doses for a long time. may want tk look into Dr John C Lilys experiments. just be careful with anything you do and its often better to use the slow route because the journey itself is just as rewarding if not more so than the goal.

Yes about deliriants i just added that partially just to add it, Benadryl is extremely toxic and deliriants in general are a very iffy class of drugs. About the guidance alot of people do this improperly but you need to learn of proper integration and i believe then it would be beneficial to use even when solo. I do agree the journey is quite rewarding but in my opinion the path with using substances for assistance does not mean it is rushed, and the journey with it is is still a long and complicated one.

 

[Lu_CiD]

the stated you get to with psychics are the same you can getto with breathing and meditation that type of thing but psychedelics are instantaneous as oped to the time it takes with other methods and by its nature you are skipping to effort and growth need to get their thats kinda what I mean. where as use in indigenous cultures has had decades and generations to learn how to properly navigate that kind of medicine.

it also depends on what your doing with them or using them for. to contact ancestors? talk with spirits? to heal or harm? all of this stuff has rules that keep you and anyone else safe that just arnt able to be taught in a short time hence why shamanic parationers are usually chose year young and have to go through a process of overcoming a "sickness" of sorta that weeds out those that are unable to face what's to come.

Crowley in his later years experimented with drugs and Magick. he also kinda got into some other extreme stuff at that time and I think he had lost his shit maybe the failing the abramelin ritual at the lockness house came to roost idk.

also the dmt dimensions are being mapped by psyhonauts as well as the beings they encounter so research is being done now but its in the early stages

what are you proposing specifically? what kind of exploitation are you interested in?

 

[Sukhoi]

the stated you get to with psychics are the same you can getto with breathing and meditation that type of thing but psychedelics are instantaneous as oped to the time it takes with other methods and by its nature you are skipping to effort and growth need to get their thats kinda what I mean. where as use in indigenous cultures has had decades and generations to learn how to properly navigate that kind of medicine.

it also depends on what your doing with them or using them for. to contact ancestors? talk with spirits? to heal or harm? all of this stuff has rules that keep you and anyone else safe that just arnt able to be taught in a short time hence why shamanic parationers are usually chose year young and have to go through a process of overcoming a "sickness" of sorta that weeds out those that are unable to face what's to come.

Crowley in his later years experimented with drugs and Magick. he also kinda got into some other extreme stuff at that time and I think he had lost his shit maybe the failing the abramelin ritual at the lockness house came to roost idk.

also the dmt dimensions are being mapped by psyhonauts as well as the beings they encounter so research is being done now but its in the early stages

what are you proposing specifically? what kind of exploitation are you interested in?

Self exploration for me primarily, different people tolerate these substances differently and for me personally i have had practically no negative experiences on heroic doses, i had mostly increased insight into myself due to the auto bibliographical enhancements LSD particularly gives. In my opinion i guess it really depends on the individual on the end, some people just cant tolerate even low lsd doses some people can. And i guess you are right in the first part where you said you are skipping a bit, if you mean skipping in that way then i agree.

I am not proposing anything specific i just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on this.

 

[Lu_CiD]

Self exploration for me primarily, different people tolerate these substances differently and for me personally i have had practically no negative experiences on heroic doses, i had mostly increased insight into myself due to the auto bibliographical enhancements LSD particularly gives. In my opinion i guess it really depends on the individual on the end, some people just cant tolerate even low lsd doses some people can. And i guess you are right in the first part where you said you are skipping a bit, if you mean skipping in that way then i agree.

I am not proposing anything specific i just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on this.

just for self exploration yea its great for that I thought you were talking about in an occult sense.

I've used many psychedelics for that. originally I just wanted to use them as part drugs but after an experience with an of golden teachers I changed my veins on what the purpose of these things were. I also have some ancestral history with them being part Mexican and Apache the use specifically in mesoamerica for mushrooms especially has been well documented. after that I used them as medicine. for instance having a specific intent or something I wanted to work on before I took anything.
as for heroic doses I've hade many. I think the largest with lsd was 35 hits(not sure how much each dose mcg was) and 10 hits of presses 230mg mdma.
the experiences I've had with dmt were extremely interesting.

 

[Sukhoi]

just for self exploration yea its great for that I thought you were talking about in an occult sense.

I've used many psychedelics for that. originally I just wanted to use them as part drugs but after an experience with an of golden teachers I changed my veins on what the purpose of these things were. I also have some ancestral history with them being part Mexican and Apache the use specifically in mesoamerica for mushrooms especially has been well documented. after that I used them as medicine. for instance having a specific intent or something I wanted to work on before I took anything.
as for heroic doses I've hade many. I think the largest with lsd was 35 hits(not sure how much each dose mcg was) and 10 hits of presses 230mg mdma.
the experiences I've had with dmt were extremely interesting.

interesting, this makes sense and yes they do have a very broad history looking into is quite interesting tbh

 

[FireBorn]

I think something worth calling out here is control and repeatability. Yes, drugs can and do alter the chemistry in the brain and produce an experience. The issue I have with that as someone who works directly with spirits can be explained with a CB radio analogy.

Taking psychedelic's is like speaking into the mouthpiece of the CB radio to whoever is out there and having an experience. Performing a ritual is like speaking into the mouthpiece and calling one specific spirits name and having a direct experience with intent. You can call that spirit at another time and have another experience later if you want. Huge difference. Not less, not bad, just different.

One issue I personally have is that the experience is chemically driven from the start. I can take a psychedelic and have an encounter regardless. If I perform an evocation while under it, I’m still having an encounter regardless, so what’s the source? Can I call that a real spiritual encounter? (Rhetorical question).

Native Americans took Peyote to experience whatever the "spirits" said to them. The Eleusinian Mystery School used Koykia(sp?) as part of their initiatory process to simulate death and rebirth. Both examples here have rich history no doubt, but they weren’t used the same way we use magick operationally today. They were deeply moving experiences for the experiencers. The Eleusinian Mystery school tradition lasted over a thousand years, so that's not nothing.

I guess it comes down to personal preference. Both experiences are subjective. The drugs do alter the brain, they have researched this and put it on paper, but that is where it stops. Like ritual, it is subjective after that.

On repeatability and control. With drugs, you are 100% on the ride til its done, like it or not. Far less control over direction, depth, and outcome. No clue what spirits you encounter. With ritual, there is full agency and control in that the practitioner can end the contact at any time. Consent matters. Another huge difference in my view.

On the positive side for psychedelics; It might be a great way to blast open the door for some. It could be a great way for someone to learn that it is okay to 'let go' and experience something "other" and potentially open someone's third eye.

Last thing and I will end my Ted talk here; About 6 months ago I did a full purge of caffeine. It was fucking brutal. My brain was over compensating for the lack of caffeine. I was waking into what I felt was like magickal trance. I was having experiences seeing the doorway to the astral. The problem was, I couldnt go in. I couldnt tell if it was because of the caffeine detox, or if it was real. I ultimately decided to halt all magickal operations until I was done with the detox and my body re-regulated itself. I couldn't trust that the magick was real magick, or just a chemical reaction only.

 

[ElectricEgregore]

I think that dissos are especially able to do other things to you as they do 2 things that psychedelics can't.

1. They mostly came from anesthetic research and have these effects that knock your body out (and sometimes even stimulating effects at the same time like PCP and it's analogues). That means they force your body into a state that is forced to focus on the inner experience, shaping your free will in ways that is weird to say the least. And some parts of perception get turned off too, like the integration of sensory information, resulting in funny associations, and less funny ones. NMDA Receptors are turned off, so that also created this "disconnected awareness".

So this results in that:

Turning Off Signal Relay: By lodging inside the receptor channel, they prevent glutamate from opening the gate for calcium and sodium ions. This effectively cuts the electrical signal between the thalamus (the brain's sensory relay station) and the cerebral cortex (the area responsible for conscious perception).

Disrupted Pathways: This blockade specifically targets pathways responsible for pain perception, proprioception or sense of body position, and multisensory integration. The body may still receive sensory input (eyes see, skin feels), but the brain physically cannot assemble these signals into a coherent picture of reality.


2. The anesthetic part of them takes away a fear that pushes you to physical or mental decisions that you would shape your regular non disso trip significantly - so you get a synthetic fearlessness or letting go that is the foundation of deeper trips that you normally self sabotage in regular psychedelics trips. This way ego dissolution and very deep states occur in different intensity.

Sadly dissos are also way more toxic and dangerous or life altering in all kinds of ways. The level of confusion is just rivaled by deliriants like datura or scopolamine, where "real hallucinations" are the common thing, where you talk with people that arent there and look real.
As many know Datura is frequently used especially in latin america to turn people into zombies (not literal like iboga burials) without will -
they just tell ppl that had a fenta like tiny amount on their skin to help empty out their flat including bed and furniture etc into a van and go with them to the bank to pickup all their funds - later they can not argue legally as the cctv shows them picking it up willingly etc.

Also datura has caused death more than once, so that is a big nono, also why would you want the extremest possible dry mouth possible for 72h after which you wake up in a hospital with them telling you you had a stroke, gifted away all you belongings and have to go to a mental asylum or jail because you caused x trouble on top, go for it. XD

Where with dissos you have the anesthetic part where you are not able to feel pain, process what is going on inside or outside of you, while being stimulated and running around with PCP as example, resulting in ppl cutting off parts of their body or behaving zombies with superhuman strength, explaining how their mom is a 1000 year old machine that has the purpose to print agents of healing that need to collect souls from evil people and animals or sth like that. There is a famous story of this rapper who cut of his penis on it.

Also the substances itself are way more toxic, you know the whole ketamine bladder thing, compared to natural psychedelics that usually just show some signs of mild poisoning for a short time.


Here is a short paragraph from AI that outlines what is blocked with dissos and causes what:

Mental Effects: What Turns "Off" and "On"​

This physical disconnection creates a unique mental state where specific aspects of perception are suppressed while others are paradoxically heightened or altered.

Turned OFF (Suppressed):

• Pain Sensation: The transmission of pain signals is blocked, providing profound analgesia even while the patient remains conscious.
• Body Ownership: The sense that "this body is mine" dissolves. Users often feel detached from their limbs or feel as though they are floating outside their physical form (depersonalization).
• Environmental Connection: The link between external events and internal emotional response is severed, leading to derealization (the world feels fake or dreamlike).
• Memory Formation: Short-term memory encoding is disrupted, often causing amnesia for events that occurred while under the influence.

Turned ON (Activated/Altered):

• Internal Hallucinations: With external sensory gates closed, the brain turns inward, generating vivid, dream-like imagery and sounds that feel more real than actual surroundings.
• Hyper-Reflectivity: In sub-anesthetic doses, the disconnect can lead to intense, looping introspective thoughts or mystical experiences, as the brain is no longer anchored by sensory input.
• Sympathetic Arousal: Paradoxically, while perception is dampened, the drug often stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, physically turning on increased heart rate, blood pressure, and muscle tone.

The Anesthetic Nature: "Dissociative" vs. "Unconscious"​

Unlike traditional anesthetics that turn off the entire brain (causing total unconsciousness), dissociatives create a functional disconnection.

• The "K-Hole": At high doses, this disconnection becomes absolute. The user enters a trance state where they are awake (eyes open, reflexes intact) but mentally completely severed from their body and environment, unable to move or speak despite being conscious.
• Sensory Isolation: It is akin to physically unplugging the monitors from a computer tower; the computer (brain) is still running and processing internal data, but it no longer receives or displays input from the keyboard and mouse (sensory organs).

Also equally crazy and some say even more insane than DMT is Salvia Divinorum, most know that stuff. Usually less dangerous (to your body) but none the less equally confusing.

But psychedelics should never be for hedonism only, but these can be on the hard end of things, I mean you can have equally life changing and sometimes also funny experiences of heroic doses or normal doses of Tryptamines that give you the same depth of experience.
If you want to scar your soul a little with less physical danger you could try DPT or so, the dark weird cold cousin of DMT.
Imagine the intensity of DMT with a dark twist, yeah, made me hesitate too.

I also felt drawn to interesting dissos in smaller doses more than once, but usually, after consuming my fair share of trip reports, descided against them. Even the "friendlier ones" like 3-Meo-PCE can and will have effects that can last up to weeks where you, well will get to know yourself, but can have serious long lasting after effects - like losing your job - or are flat out dangerous without some unemployed friend or ultra cool retired dad that is there for you 24/7.

For me it's mostly just the occasional tageted higher dose of shrooms or something equally "classic and physically safe"-
or the professionally assisted week long retreat challenge - than the experimentation with the basics of my reality.

That being said - I would go for some professional Ketamine therapy if I could in my area.

But dissos often times have a big problem with forming addiction while having a really steep tolerance curve (while being destructive to your bladder etc), and developing true delusion and "redosing problems aka accelerated addiction" - is way tooeasy on these.

I have nothing against deep experimentation - in the contrary, I am well informed on quiet some exotic stuff and am kind of on the wavelenght of "do what thou wilt" - but I just wanted to highlight the disclaimer in neon colored letters here.

I am usually no substance doomer, but this segment of substances is no joke & if I saved one person from life long institutional exploitation and so on, you're welcome

In that sense - don't panic it's organic -yeeea maybe not datura, but you get what I mean.

 

[Lu_CiD]

Native Americans took Peyote to experience whatever the "spirits" said to them. The Eleusinian Mystery School used Koykia(sp?)

kykeon I think is what your talking about spiked with ergot extracts.

I think something worth calling out here is control and repeatability. Yes, drugs can and do alter the chemistry in the brain and produce an experience. The issue I have with that as someone who works directly with spirits can be explained with a CB radio analogy.

Taking psychedelic's is like speaking into the mouthpiece of the CB radio to whoever is out there and having an experience. Performing a ritual is like speaking into the mouthpiece and calling one specific spirits name and having a direct experience with intent. You can call that spirit at another time and have another experience later if you want. Huge difference. Not less, not bad, just different.

One issue I personally have is that the experience is chemically driven from the start. I can take a psychedelic and have an encounter regardless. If I perform an evocation while under it, I’m still having an encounter regardless, so what’s the source? Can I call that a real spiritual encounter? (Rhetorical question).

Native Americans took Peyote to experience whatever the "spirits" said to them. The Eleusinian Mystery School used Koykia(sp?) as part of their initiatory process to simulate death and rebirth. Both examples here have rich history no doubt, but they weren’t used the same way we use magick operationally today. They were deeply moving experiences for the experiencers. The Eleusinian Mystery school tradition lasted over a thousand years, so that's not nothing.

I guess it comes down to personal preference. Both experiences are subjective. The drugs do alter the brain, they have researched this and put it on paper, but that is where it stops. Like ritual, it is subjective after that.

On repeatability and control. With drugs, you are 100% on the ride til its done, like it or not. Far less control over direction, depth, and outcome. No clue what spirits you encounter. With ritual, there is full agency and control in that the practitioner can end the contact at any time. Consent matters. Another huge difference in my view.

On the positive side for psychedelics; It might be a great way to blast open the door for some. It could be a great way for someone to learn that it is okay to 'let go' and experience something "other" and potentially open someone's third eye.

Last thing and I will end my Ted talk here; About 6 months ago I did a full purge of caffeine. It was fucking brutal. My brain was over compensating for the lack of caffeine. I was waking into what I felt was like magickal trance. I was having experiences seeing the doorway to the astral. The problem was, I couldnt go in. I couldnt tell if it was because of the caffeine detox, or if it was real. I ultimately decided to halt all magickal operations until I was done with the detox and my body re-regulated itself. I couldn't trust that the magick was real magick, or just a chemical reaction only.

thats all very true. your analogy is a perfect way ro explain things. however shamans have a lifetime of training to be able to navigate through that experience. I was trying to explain that without the training they get the average user is stuck in exactly what you are talking about

Post automatically merged: 10 minutes ago

I think that dissos are especially able to do other things to you as they do 2 things that psychedelics can't.

1. They mostly came from anesthetic research and have these effects that knock your body out (and sometimes even stimulating effects at the same time like PCP and it's analogues). That means they force your body into a state that is forced to focus on the inner experience, shaping your free will in ways that is weird to say the least. And some parts of perception get turned off too, like the integration of sensory information, resulting in funny associations, and less funny ones. NMDA Receptors are turned off, so that also created this "disconnected awareness".

So this results in that:

Turning Off Signal Relay: By lodging inside the receptor channel, they prevent glutamate from opening the gate for calcium and sodium ions. This effectively cuts the electrical signal between the thalamus (the brain's sensory relay station) and the cerebral cortex (the area responsible for conscious perception).

Disrupted Pathways: This blockade specifically targets pathways responsible for pain perception, proprioception or sense of body position, and multisensory integration. The body may still receive sensory input (eyes see, skin feels), but the brain physically cannot assemble these signals into a coherent picture of reality.


2. The anesthetic part of them takes away a fear that pushes you to physical or mental decisions that you would shape your regular non disso trip significantly - so you get a synthetic fearlessness or letting go that is the foundation of deeper trips that you normally self sabotage in regular psychedelics trips. This way ego dissolution and very deep states occur in different intensity.

Sadly dissos are also way more toxic and dangerous or life altering in all kinds of ways. The level of confusion is just rivaled by deliriants like datura or scopolamine, where "real hallucinations" are the common thing, where you talk with people that arent there and look real.
As many know Datura is frequently used especially in latin america to turn people into zombies (not literal like iboga burials) without will -
they just tell ppl that had a fenta like tiny amount on their skin to help empty out their flat including bed and furniture etc into a van and go with them to the bank to pickup all their funds - later they can not argue legally as the cctv shows them picking it up willingly etc.

Also datura has caused death more than once, so that is a big nono, also why would you want the extremest possible dry mouth possible for 72h after which you wake up in a hospital with them telling you you had a stroke, gifted away all you belongings and have to go to a mental asylum or jail because you caused x trouble on top, go for it. XD

Where with dissos you have the anesthetic part where you are not able to feel pain, process what is going on inside or outside of you, while being stimulated and running around with PCP as example, resulting in ppl cutting off parts of their body or behaving zombies with superhuman strength, explaining how their mom is a 1000 year old machine that has the purpose to print agents of healing that need to collect souls from evil people and animals or sth like that. There is a famous story of this rapper who cut of his penis on it.

Also the substances itself are way more toxic, you know the whole ketamine bladder thing, compared to natural psychedelics that usually just show some signs of mild poisoning for a short time.


Here is a short paragraph from AI that outlines what is blocked with dissos and causes what:



Also equally crazy and some say even more insane than DMT is Salvia Divinorum, most know that stuff. Usually less dangerous (to your body) but none the less equally confusing.

But psychedelics should never be for hedonism only, but these can be on the hard end of things, I mean you can have equally life changing and sometimes also funny experiences of heroic doses or normal doses of Tryptamines that give you the same depth of experience.
If you want to scar your soul a little with less physical danger you could try DPT or so, the dark weird cold cousin of DMT.
Imagine the intensity of DMT with a dark twist, yeah, made me hesitate too.

I also felt drawn to interesting dissos in smaller doses more than once, but usually, after consuming my fair share of trip reports, descided against them. Even the "friendlier ones" like 3-Meo-PCE can and will have effects that can last up to weeks where you, well will get to know yourself, but can have serious long lasting after effects - like losing your job - or are flat out dangerous without some unemployed friend or ultra cool retired dad that is there for you 24/7.

For me it's mostly just the occasional tageted higher dose of shrooms or something equally "classic and physically safe"-
or the professionally assisted week long retreat challenge - than the experimentation with the basics of my reality.

That being said - I would go for some professional Ketamine therapy if I could in my area.

But dissos often times have a big problem with forming addiction while having a really steep tolerance curve (while being destructive to your bladder etc), and developing true delusion and "redosing problems aka accelerated addiction" - is way tooeasy on these.

I have nothing against deep experimentation - in the contrary, I am well informed on quiet some exotic stuff and am kind of on the wavelenght of "do what thou wilt" - but I just wanted to highlight the disclaimer in neon colored letters here.

I am usually no substance doomer, but this segment of substances is no joke & if I saved one person from life long institutional exploitation and so on, you're welcome

In that sense - don't panic it's organic -yeeea maybe not datura, but you get what I mean.

ketamine has very little toxicity. it does effect the kidneys tho and if you take .25 g daily for months or more it will eventually cause damage incontinence is common.

also what's the difference between chemical and psychological disassociative states?