What are your thoughts on free will? Do you believe it exists or not? Curious.

[byte007]

I crammed a lot into a very short space. I totally understand it if someone's eyes glass over while reading it.

To my way of thinking, hardly anyone has an original thought. Everyone is imitating everyone else, and that includes me of course. Free will is the process of taking control of thinking. How do you know what you really want and why? My simplest explanation of Girard's mimesis is "monkey see, monkey do." (Girard disagrees with Sigmund Fraud, by the way, on the origins of desire.) A more accessible introduction to Girardian mimesis is this book by Luke Burgis:

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(It can be found as a pdf on the web, but since it is not a magic book I won't share a copy on the forum.)

Thanks for the info. I understand what Girard was getting at after seeing what his main points were. I think that his theory on Mimetic desire shows true most of the time for sure in society. Of course every now and again some new thoughts are created I am sure, hence we get new art, music, inventions, theories ect... As far as Freud, I think the Mimetic Desire theory can kinda fit into Freud's Superego in a way, I am sure they disagreed on some things. I see things that make sense in observation of humanity in boths concepts. I see some of his other theories also have a common theme in some of our society for sure.

I looked up the origin of the "monkey see, monkey do" saying and this is what I found:
In medival literature and art it seems that the monkey was noted for mimicking human behaviour and used as a symbol for the "fool" among others (as usual meanings can also contradict), so I can see where some other references for the Mimetic Desire theory come from. In the movie the Prophesy, Gabriel (Christopher Walken) referes to humans as "talking monkeys" Maybe the writer (Gregory Widen) was inspired by Girard... Interesting, he also wrote Highlander. Also makes me think of the Planet Of The Apes movies, wonder if that was also Girard inspired or if it is inspired from the Japanese wisdom. The three wise monkeys: (made me think, three wise men, strange coincidence there...)

1. Hear No Evil (Mizaru): Covers his ears, symbolizing the avoidance of listening to gossip or harmful words.
2. See No Evil (Kikazaru): Covers his eyes, representing the avoidance of witnessing immoral or harmful deeds.
3. Speak No Evil (Iwazaru): Covers his mouth, signifying the avoidance of speaking ill or spreading harmful words.

The use of monkeys in the imagery is likely due to a play on words in the Japanese language. The word for "monkey" in Japanese is "saru," which sounds similar to the last syllable of each monkey's name (zaru). This linguistic connection adds a clever and memorable aspect to the concept. The symbolic meaning of the monkey in Japanese culture and others is clever (odd since they are known to mimic which is not what we would considered clever, as it means mentally quick and original).

I have found in our words and language that often the meanings of words are associated with things that are opposite often which is irrational, if it is done on purpose for hidden reasons it is still irrational to do that. I have found this in the roots of words as well where the words that make up a word may mean the opposite to the word it is a part of. Then there are words like these: "clever" and "cleaver." the later splits or severs things and if you split or sever a word does that make it clever! Maybe that is the hidden origin of the word clever? Making words would be considered clever after all! lol

Post automatically merged: Dec 10, 2023

10 years ago . . heck maybe even 5 years ago if you had asked me that . . i would have said “Duh! Of Course there’s Free Will!” . . but actually, the more time i spend in solitude in nature and the more magick i experience . . . the more i sense the patterns and unseen hands of . . . what? . . i dont really know . . . . but Somebodything’s writing this stuff!! Sometimes I truly feel as if im just being carried by some divine river no matter what choices i try to make to go another way i just circle right back . . and It Is Crazy Synchronistic up in here!!! . . . downright comical sometimes . . . . . . . . .

. . . it might have something to do with us actually being multidimensional beings experiencing a linear timeline life in physical monkey bodies . . . . when in Reality there is no Time as we were taught to understand it (by people with agendas) . . . some say this is all actually happening simultaneously . . . so there’s bound to be bleed through . . . we get these glimpses and ripples that make everything feel all destiny deja vu and stuff . . . which is weird to us 3D one way timer tunnelers . . . and our higher selves (or gods or whatever) are up there in the higher dimensions looking at the whole map of our lives and we can sense that maybe . . . something like that . . . . . . . i dont know . . . . . . im just a monkey with Starlink . . . . . . . . .

I do think there is free will but I wonder if it is limited. For example, why can't psychic's be accurate on seeing always? Choice changes things? Of course there would be a pattern to why people choose what they do, so obviously there is a way to have a good idea but not absolutely. This would show choice is likely based on that example and I am sure there are more.

We can't prove it but there is much we can't prove that many know is probable based on patterns we just don't know exactly what that probable means absolutely! lol If you are gonna use the "monkey" term use the positive meanings! I have never done any ritualistic magick so I don't have experience to draw from there. I am just interested in learning about it. If only I had the time to learn about everything I wanted to! The matrix made it look easy eh? "Tank" upload all texts on the occult now...lol Of course don't get any idea's that I like the idea of putting any cyber parts in our heads Klaus and Yuval...lol

 

[TheMouse]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

(It can be found as a pdf on the web, but since it is not a magic book I won't share a copy on the forum.)

ok That Book looks super interesting . . . thank you for that!

Post automatically merged: Dec 10, 2023

Thanks for the info. I understand what Girard was getting at after seeing what his main points were. I think that his theory on Mimetic desire shows true most of the time for sure in society. Of course every now and again some new thoughts are created I am sure, hence we get new art, music, inventions, theories ect... As far as Freud, I think the Mimetic Desire theory can kinda fit into Freud's Superego in a way, I am sure they disagreed on some things. I see things that make sense in observation of humanity in boths concepts. I see some of his other theories also have a common theme in some of our society for sure.

I looked up the origin of the "monkey see, monkey do" saying and this is what I found:
In medival literature and art it seems that the monkey was noted for mimicking human behaviour and used as a symbol for the "fool" among others (as usual meanings can also contradict), so I can see where some other references for the Mimetic Desire theory come from. In the movie the Prophesy, Gabriel (Christopher Walken) referes to humans as "talking monkeys" Maybe the writer (Gregory Widen) was inspired by Girard... Interesting, he also wrote Highlander. Also makes me think of the Planet Of The Apes movies, wonder if that was also Girard inspired or if it is inspired from the Japanese wisdom. The three wise monkeys: (made me think, three wise men, strange coincidence there...)

1. Hear No Evil (Mizaru): Covers his ears, symbolizing the avoidance of listening to gossip or harmful words.
2. See No Evil (Kikazaru): Covers his eyes, representing the avoidance of witnessing immoral or harmful deeds.
3. Speak No Evil (Iwazaru): Covers his mouth, signifying the avoidance of speaking ill or spreading harmful words.

The use of monkeys in the imagery is likely due to a play on words in the Japanese language. The word for "monkey" in Japanese is "saru," which sounds similar to the last syllable of each monkey's name (zaru). This linguistic connection adds a clever and memorable aspect to the concept. The symbolic meaning of the monkey in Japanese culture and others is clever (odd since they are known to mimic which is not what we would considered clever, as it means mentally quick and original).

I have found in our words and language that often the meanings of words are associated with things that are opposite often which is irrational, if it is done on purpose for hidden reasons it is still irrational to do that. I have found this in the roots of words as well where the words that make up a word may mean the opposite to the word it is a part of. Then there are words like these: "clever" and "cleaver." the later splits or severs things and if you split or sever a word does that make it clever! Maybe that is the hidden origin of the word clever? Making words would be considered clever after all! lol

Post automatically merged: Dec 10, 2023

I do think there is free will but I wonder if it is limited. For example, why can't psychic's be accurate on seeing always? Choice changes things? Of course there would be a pattern to why people choose what they do, so obviously there is a way to have a good idea but not absolutely. This would show choice is likely based on that example and I am sure there are more.

We can't prove it but there is much we can't prove that many know is probable based on patterns we just don't know exactly what that probable means absolutely! lol If you are gonna use the "monkey" term use the positive meanings! I have never done any ritualistic magick so I don't have experience to draw from there. I am just interested in learning about it. If only I had the time to learn about everything I wanted to! The matrix made it look easy eh? "Tank" upload all texts on the occult now...lol Of course don't get any idea's that I like the idea of putting any cyber parts in our heads Klaus and Yuval...lol

ok i just learned a bunch of stuff from you . . . .

“limited" free will is a good way to look at it . . . it doesnt have to be All or Nothing . . . . just as there are Rules of Physics in the Material World that limit our Free Will . . . there would have to be Rules of Higher Physics in the unseen realms that do the same . . . . i guess that’s what magick is all about, huh . . . . . .

as for positive meanings for Monkey . . . i have Tremendous Respect for Monkey as Fool . . . . Im a Monkey in both the Chinese and Mayan systems . . . and it just occurred to me . . . regarding Monkey See Monkey Do . . . smart animals who want to survive, find ways to align themselves with humans . . . . we dont tend to eat or randomly kill animals who mimic our behavior, play, and “love” in ways we think we can understand (well except for rats ) . . . . .

Post automatically merged: Dec 10, 2023

The elite of the world for example are responsible for killing millions of people and for generations they live what most consider amazing lives. Of course we do not know how they feel within but they look content with their path and actions so it makes no sense to me.

ive known a few trust funder 1%ers pretty well and theyre just as f*ckin miserable as the rest of us . . . their Entire Lives are All About maintaining the Status Quo, no matter what . . All the Resources and Zero Free Will. . . . . as for karma . . . i wouldnt trade my night's sleep for theirs . . . . . . .

 

[byte007]

ok That Book looks super interesting . . . thank you for that!

Post automatically merged: Dec 10, 2023

ok i just learned a bunch of stuff from you . . . .

“limited" free will is a good way to look at it . . . it doesnt have to be All or Nothing . . . . just as there are Rules of Physics in the Material World that limit our Free Will . . . there would have to be Rules of Higher Physics in the unseen realms that do the same . . . . i guess that’s what magick is all about, huh . . . . . .

as for positive meanings for Monkey . . . i have Tremendous Respect for Monkey as Fool . . . . Im a Monkey in both the Chinese and Mayan systems . . . and it just occurred to me . . . regarding Monkey See Monkey Do . . . smart animals who want to survive, find ways to align themselves with humans . . . . we dont tend to eat or randomly kill animals who mimic our behavior, play, and “love” in ways we think we can understand (well except for rats ) . . . . .

Post automatically merged: Dec 10, 2023

ive known a few trust funder 1%ers pretty well and theyre just as f*ckin miserable as the rest of us . . . their Entire Lives are All About maintaining the Status Quo, no matter what . . All the Resources and Zero Free Will. . . . . as for karma . . . i wouldnt trade my night's sleep for theirs . . . . . . .

As far as all or nothing with free will, I think we could evolve to all if fear was dealt with. After all, if we are limited then it would make sense the Source is limiting itself, why would that happen do you think? (curious of your thoughts on it). An interesting question.

I don't know if I think that there are rules as far as in the unseen realms, maybe the Source does what it wants based on a planned purpose with twists and turns. If there are rules they are not followed I think...lol I do not know what magick is about, that is why I am learning about all kinds of stuff to understand more. I would like to see stats on a lot of stuff (of course I am sure only google has that data). As Snowden said, they are listening to everything (recorded so I am sure there is a database that has the data, would be facinating to see). I have known that many religious people do their rituals and prayer to get what they want and from my observation (limited) it does not seem to have a favorable outcome consistantly. It makes me think about alot of this other realm kinda stuff though.

It makes me wonder if the Source just decides what to listen to based on purpose. I have known some religious people and found that the ones with money and success tend to attribute it to their faith and reward from God but then you look at people in the third world who are barely able to survive and many of them have faith and beliefs in other realms and do stuff within their beliefs to have a better life but it does not seem to benefit them in a way that makes sense observably. Another reason I don't think karma makes sense. It seems in todays world most are passing the buck so how does karma fit into that? I think that is just manipulating people to blam other people which of course has cause and effect. Is it other realm stuff? Doesn't seem to me to make sense that it is in that context at least. If I could get good information to show me otherwise about karma I would surely look at it.

Based on your statement about the elite being as miserable as most I would not know of course the answer to that. I am not speaking of people with wealth, I mean the ones with all the wealth. Most that just have wealth on the lower levels in society are reliant on validation so I see many of them are miserable. The more fear you have, the less happy one usually is. The elite at the top are bread in a different world than the rest so I imagine things are different there. I am sure they probably require validation as well. I am not miserable so I am lucky I guess! As far as animals aligning with humans, some do for sure although they are not being treated to well on the planet overall by humans so other than pets, I don't think many animals would want to align but I see what you are saying. If these people at the top of society destroy things to a very dangerous point, other people become the biggest liability so the animals will be better off away from the humans!

I am year of the tiger, Leo in astrology but I am no pussy cat! I actually like rats as animals, quite smart. Of course symbolically (most commonly used) not the best, although it is interesting when you look at the meaning in that context. I remember reading about it years ago when watching a T.V. program where some criminals were calling a person a "rat" for exposing them on the show. The one exposing was not involved with the ones being exposed so the one exposing does not fall under the meaning as it implies they were involved and then gave up accomplices... I always think of that when the animal name is brought up, I don't think many think about that on T.V. and movies when they use the term. All the stuff I think of! Thanks for the thoughts!

 

[TheMouse]

As far as all or nothing with free will, I think we could evolve to all if fear was dealt with. After all, if we are limited then it would make sense the Source is limiting itself, why would that happen do you think? (curious of your thoughts on it). An interesting question.

I don't know if I think that there are rules as far as in the unseen realms, maybe the Source does what it wants based on a planned purpose with twists and turns. If there are rules they are not followed I think...lol I do not know what magick is about, that is why I am learning about all kinds of stuff to understand more. I would like to see stats on a lot of stuff (of course I am sure only google has that data). As Snowden said, they are listening to everything (recorded so I am sure there is a database that has the data, would be facinating to see). I have known that many religious people do their rituals and prayer to get what they want and from my observation (limited) it does not seem to have a favorable outcome consistantly. It makes me think about alot of this other realm kinda stuff though.

It makes me wonder if the Source just decides what to listen to based on purpose. I have known some religious people and found that the ones with money and success tend to attribute it to their faith and reward from God but then you look at people in the third world who are barely able to survive and many of them have faith and beliefs in other realms and do stuff within their beliefs to have a better life but it does not seem to benefit them in a way that makes sense observably. Another reason I don't think karma makes sense. It seems in todays world most are passing the buck so how does karma fit into that? I think that is just manipulating people to blam other people which of course has cause and effect. Is it other realm stuff? Doesn't seem to me to make sense that it is in that context at least. If I could get good information to show me otherwise about karma I would surely look at it.

Based on your statement about the elite being as miserable as most I would not know of course the answer to that. I am not speaking of people with wealth, I mean the ones with all the wealth. Most that just have wealth on the lower levels in society are reliant on validation so I see many of them are miserable. The more fear you have, the less happy one usually is. The elite at the top are bread in a different world than the rest so I imagine things are different there. I am sure they probably require validation as well. I am not miserable so I am lucky I guess! As far as animals aligning with humans, some do for sure although they are not being treated to well on the planet overall by humans so other than pets, I don't think many animals would want to align but I see what you are saying. If these people at the top of society destroy things to a very dangerous point, other people become the biggest liability so the animals will be better off away from the humans!

I am year of the tiger, Leo in astrology but I am no pussy cat! I actually like rats as animals, quite smart. Of course symbolically (most commonly used) not the best, although it is interesting when you look at the meaning in that context. I remember reading about it years ago when watching a T.V. program where some criminals were calling a person a "rat" for exposing them on the show. The one exposing was not involved with the ones being exposed so the one exposing does not fall under the meaning as it implies they were involved and then gave up accomplices... I always think of that when the animal name is brought up, I don't think many think about that on T.V. and movies when they use the term. All the stuff I think of! Thanks for the thoughts!

“we could evolve to all if fear was dealt with.”

Yes. This! . . . a lot of my practices, for myself and others, revolve around, or at least start with, removing Fear . . can’t do nuthin under a mudflood o fear . . . . . .

there are two issues here . . . Innate Free Will and Cultural Free Will . . . . Cultural Free Will is our sense of what's possible in our given culture . . . and this is often dictated by Fear and deeply rooted Status Quo . . . who controls the resources? what can you do and say? how are you allowed to do and say it? who gets a voice and who doesnt? . . . there is a tiny bit of cultural free will tucked into the cracks here and there . . but you pretty much have to break the rules at least a little bit every day to truly live free in any Culture right now . . . . .

. . . as for Innate Free Will . . what we’re born with as free and loving beings . . . that’s what im working on learning about . . . . . the first step in understanding my own Natural Free Will . . and this step is a Doozy! . it’s taking me many decades . . . is recognizing and removing (when i can) the Cultural Conditioning that artificially cramps my free will style . . . that conditioning permeates EVERYTHING . . not just Media and Religion . . but how and when i eat . sleep . bathe . dress . love . fear . breathe . do my hair . walk . sit . etcetcetc . . . All of that has been dictated for me . . . . the reason i hermit so heavy is that the only way i can truly tap into my Innate Free Will . . is to remove myself (as much as i can) from the Influences of the Will of Others . . including how im supposed to look and act at the grocery store (which is pretty much the only public place i ever go) . . . . .

as for the Will of Source . . . that’s an interesting idea to sort of Zoom Out and look at ALL the DATA, Snowden Style . . seeing what patterns and such emerge through all that information . . . . . right now in my life, i take the approach of Zooming In . . . tapping into my own free will on the micro level which allows me to hear faint whispers of the Will of Source in the behavioral molecules and emotional dna of my own inner world . . . . .

as for Source limiting itself . . . . this whole Individual Human 3D life, for whatever reason, seems to be All about experiencing Separation from Source . . . however one defines Source . . even if it’s just some atheistic dust to dust . . we are separated from dust for a time . . . . for some reason, we Long for that Dust! To ReMerge with Source . . . but we’re also super scared of it because it’s unseen/unknowable and seems to involve the Death of the Self . . . . so we live this weird Paradox . . . i dont consider myself a miserable person either, but this separation is Really Confusing and Rough on All of us. . . . . . Why does Source Separate Itself like This? . . . Why does Source turn itself into animals that eat each other? . . . Why does Shiva Destroy with one Hand and Create with the other? . . . this ever churning . . . is it the same in Higher Realms? . . . i do not know. . . . . . but Everybody seems to agree . . . . As Above . . So Below . . . . . . . i meditate on that a lot.

one result of this separation is how we treat creatures and beings that we perceive as Other . . . . as you mention, how we treat Animals on this planet. . . . . and we are All guilty of Claiming Our Space in a way that Destroys somebody else’s established Home . . . i love wasps (for Real) but i’ll knock down a wasp nest right over my front door . . . . . and i “own” land that used to be freely enjoyed by indigenous people . . . . . we are All Savages (i sure am) Surviving in Separation . . . . . . .

when we’re talking about the Elite (be it billionaires or Reptilians or whatever) . . . we’re pretty much talkin Predators and Straight Up Cannibalism . . that’s essentially what Slavery (and Social Media) is . . somebody's Body/Mind/Spirit gets all Chewed up Dead laboring for somebody else's Benefit . . . . . .

. . . and speaking of Reptilians, oops i mean Religions . . . i was raised Mormon . . . . and they certainly arent in the miracle business . . . they are in the Shame and Fear business . . . . as for people who say God loves them enough to make them Rich . . i dont even know where to start with that BS . . . . that’s part of the cultural conditioning to be overcome . . . at every turn, we’re taught to Admire the Cannibals . . . and that shit is Built into the Religious systems all over the place . . . from India’s Caste System to Evangelical MegaChurches . . . . . SO. MUCH. NOISE.

the only way i have found to have any idea what Source might be up to . . . is to step Away from the Cannibals (in Every way possible) and get really really really really quiet . . . . . and listen . . . . . . . . . . and watch a butterfly . . . . . . and listen some more . . . . . . . . . . . . come to think of it . . . Most of my Magick Work is about Clearing the way and Allowing for this Quiet . . . . . . . .

Rats are amazing . . . we have a lot to learn from them . . . . that is interesting about people being called “rats” . . . . i remember years ago, i referred to some asshole guy as a “Dog” . . and a friend of mine said, what did a dog ever do to you? . . . . i said, Good Point.

thank you for your thoughts too!

 

[KjEno186]

From Colin Wilson's book, The War Against Sleep - The Philosophy of Gurdjieff (or G.I. Gurdjieff The War Against Sleep):

This, then, was the kind of knowledge Gurdjieff was seeking—a knowledge that would bring power over people. But he was not interested in the power for its own sake. He wanted to know why a Yezidi boy could be confined within a ‘magic circle’, why a certain chord could send a girl into a trance. Vitvitskaia revealed part of the answer when she told Gurdjieff about the secrets she had learned from the ‘Monopsyche Brethren’. ‘It cannot be denied that when the people present corresponded absolutely to the mentioned conditions, I could call forth at will in all of them laughter, tears, malice, kindness, and so on ... ’ That is, their emotions could be triggered, as if they were machines. This was perhaps the most important single conviction that Gurdjieff gained from his study of esoteric religions: that man is almost entirely mechanical. He believes that he ‘lives’ because he laughs, cries, gets angry, feels sorrow. In fact, says Gurdjieff, such reactions are little more than computerized responses to certain definite stimuli, mere reflexes. This is the meaning of the title of one of Bennett’s books about Gurdjieff: Is There Life on Earth? The answer is: very little. Most of what we call life is mechanical response.​

​

But can we achieve a degree of freedom from our mechanisms? When people asked Gurdjieff that question, he told them that they had just taken the most important step towards developing free will.​

 

[byte007]

“we could evolve to all if fear was dealt with.”

Yes. This! . . . a lot of my practices, for myself and others, revolve around, or at least start with, removing Fear . . can’t do nuthin under a mudflood o fear . . . . . .

there are two issues here . . . Innate Free Will and Cultural Free Will . . . . Cultural Free Will is our sense of what's possible in our given culture . . . and this is often dictated by Fear and deeply rooted Status Quo . . . who controls the resources? what can you do and say? how are you allowed to do and say it? who gets a voice and who doesnt? . . . there is a tiny bit of cultural free will tucked into the cracks here and there . . but you pretty much have to break the rules at least a little bit every day to truly live free in any Culture right now . . . . .

. . . as for Innate Free Will . . what we’re born with as free and loving beings . . . that’s what im working on learning about . . . . . the first step in understanding my own Natural Free Will . . and this step is a Doozy! . it’s taking me many decades . . . is recognizing and removing (when i can) the Cultural Conditioning that artificially cramps my free will style . . . that conditioning permeates EVERYTHING . . not just Media and Religion . . but how and when i eat . sleep . bathe . dress . love . fear . breathe . do my hair . walk . sit . etcetcetc . . . All of that has been dictated for me . . . . the reason i hermit so heavy is that the only way i can truly tap into my Innate Free Will . . is to remove myself (as much as i can) from the Influences of the Will of Others . . including how im supposed to look and act at the grocery store (which is pretty much the only public place i ever go) . . . . .

as for the Will of Source . . . that’s an interesting idea to sort of Zoom Out and look at ALL the DATA, Snowden Style . . seeing what patterns and such emerge through all that information . . . . . right now in my life, i take the approach of Zooming In . . . tapping into my own free will on the micro level which allows me to hear faint whispers of the Will of Source in the behavioral molecules and emotional dna of my own inner world . . . . .

as for Source limiting itself . . . . this whole Individual Human 3D life, for whatever reason, seems to be All about experiencing Separation from Source . . . however one defines Source . . even if it’s just some atheistic dust to dust . . we are separated from dust for a time . . . . for some reason, we Long for that Dust! To ReMerge with Source . . . but we’re also super scared of it because it’s unseen/unknowable and seems to involve the Death of the Self . . . . so we live this weird Paradox . . . i dont consider myself a miserable person either, but this separation is Really Confusing and Rough on All of us. . . . . . Why does Source Separate Itself like This? . . . Why does Source turn itself into animals that eat each other? . . . Why does Shiva Destroy with one Hand and Create with the other? . . . this ever churning . . . is it the same in Higher Realms? . . . i do not know. . . . . . but Everybody seems to agree . . . . As Above . . So Below . . . . . . . i meditate on that a lot.

one result of this separation is how we treat creatures and beings that we perceive as Other . . . . as you mention, how we treat Animals on this planet. . . . . and we are All guilty of Claiming Our Space in a way that Destroys somebody else’s established Home . . . i love wasps (for Real) but i’ll knock down a wasp nest right over my front door . . . . . and i “own” land that used to be freely enjoyed by indigenous people . . . . . we are All Savages (i sure am) Surviving in Separation . . . . . . .

when we’re talking about the Elite (be it billionaires or Reptilians or whatever) . . . we’re pretty much talkin Predators and Straight Up Cannibalism . . that’s essentially what Slavery (and Social Media) is . . somebody's Body/Mind/Spirit gets all Chewed up Dead laboring for somebody else's Benefit . . . . . .

. . . and speaking of Reptilians, oops i mean Religions . . . i was raised Mormon . . . . and they certainly arent in the miracle business . . . they are in the Shame and Fear business . . . . as for people who say God loves them enough to make them Rich . . i dont even know where to start with that BS . . . . that’s part of the cultural conditioning to be overcome . . . at every turn, we’re taught to Admire the Cannibals . . . and that shit is Built into the Religious systems all over the place . . . from India’s Caste System to Evangelical MegaChurches . . . . . SO. MUCH. NOISE.

the only way i have found to have any idea what Source might be up to . . . is to step Away from the Cannibals (in Every way possible) and get really really really really quiet . . . . . and listen . . . . . . . . . . and watch a butterfly . . . . . . and listen some more . . . . . . . . . . . . come to think of it . . . Most of my Magick Work is about Clearing the way and Allowing for this Quiet . . . . . . . .

Rats are amazing . . . we have a lot to learn from them . . . . that is interesting about people being called “rats” . . . . i remember years ago, i referred to some asshole guy as a “Dog” . . and a friend of mine said, what did a dog ever do to you? . . . . i said, Good Point.

thank you for your thoughts too!

You bring up a good point about the cultural limitations and such as far as free will. I was meaning more in terms of what we can't see. Although if free will is effected heavily in our environment could it have impact on free will in the unseen aspect? It makes me laugh when people call people dogs, of course they all have their reason for it. When it is used in terms of someone being "on a leash" type jest, it always makes me laugh because the opposite is usually true. Of course when a man does a lot of running around and cheating, often the term "dog" is used, which when you think about it most animals behave like that as they do not observe monogamy...

As far as elite being reptilian, I do not subscribe to that perspective. There are all kinds of myths about these people which I think is all designed to make people look silly. Just a bunch of people raised to be the way they are lacking empathy and some develop God complexes... Soro's even said he looks at himself as a God, I had to laugh. So many because they have more knowledge then others about certain things (which is not everything and they are wrong about a lot I am sure), think they are special because of purpose, sad. No matter what happens on earth the elite are in for disappointment at this point in our devolution I think, my hunch.

 

[Amur]

I have always thought that free will is linked to chaos and fractals, which is really the property itself in free will, if it wasn't for that chaos and fractals everything would have consistent geometrical patterns.

 

[Roma]

thought that free will is linked to chaos and fractals,

I used to think that free will was limited to facing down stream or up stream while being carried down the river into the Cosmic Ocean. In that scenario, cooperating with the river gives a smoother trip.

These days I consider what the design functionality of the human might contribute to managing parallel timelines/rivers within the Tzimtzum

 

[Amur]

I used to think that free will was limited to facing down stream or up stream while being carried down the river into the Cosmic Ocean. In that scenario, cooperating with the river gives a smoother trip.

These days I consider what the design functionality of the human might contribute to managing parallel timelines/rivers within the Tzimtzum

That is also part of the fractal which I'm envisioning, but you can still go both ways. Perhaps a simpler explanation with the river.

 

[TheMouse]

I have always thought that free will is linked to chaos and fractals, which is really the property itself in free will, if it wasn't for that chaos and fractals everything would have consistent geometrical patterns.

that’s interesting . . . so, theoretically speaking . . . theres a stable geometric universe . . then free will comes in, like a cannonball in the water and sets off a bunch of chaotic fractal patterns . . . . and then perhaps . . . the higher order of the strange attractor emerges within the chaos . . . and then the whole system evolves to a new stable geometric universe of increasing complexity and novelty . . . . maybe . . . . . .

Post automatically merged: Dec 12, 2023

You bring up a good point about the cultural limitations and such as far as free will. I was meaning more in terms of what we can't see. Although if free will is effected heavily in our environment could it have impact on free will in the unseen aspect? It makes me laugh when people call people dogs, of course they all have their reason for it. When it is used in terms of someone being "on a leash" type jest, it always makes me laugh because the opposite is usually true. Of course when a man does a lot of running around and cheating, often the term "dog" is used, which when you think about it most animals behave like that as they do not observe monogamy...

As far as elite being reptilian, I do not subscribe to that perspective. There are all kinds of myths about these people which I think is all designed to make people look silly. Just a bunch of people raised to be the way they are lacking empathy and some develop God complexes... Soro's even said he looks at himself as a God, I had to laugh. So many because they have more knowledge then others about certain things (which is not everything and they are wrong about a lot I am sure), think they are special because of purpose, sad. No matter what happens on earth the elite are in for disappointment at this point in our devolution I think, my hunch.

yeah i dont really think theyre actually reptiles either . . but it's a persistent metaphor . . . . . just like rats and dogs . Reptiles are actually super cool and magick . . . . .

 

[byte007]

I have always thought that free will is linked to chaos and fractals, which is really the property itself in free will, if it wasn't for that chaos and fractals everything would have consistent geometrical patterns.

I have seen that perspective as far as chaos although the word chaos usually has a negative feel to it. As far as geometrical patterns are concerned, I think that is just a way of perceiving it visually. Fear of not having control as a concept stifles the concept of free will. If fear was very low, there would be no reason to fear free will as a concept. Free will is freedom in essence I think for us and the Source. The fear of the unknown causes the concept of free will to be looked at as dangerous but it does not make sense it would be. Look at the state of our reality now, fear is the cause of the problems not free will. When people have much fear they make irrational choices. It is interesting you look at it in terms of geometry and fractals. If we had a low fear existence that would effect the whole of existence I think as everything is connected which would make for beautiful fractals. My thoughts on it.

Post automatically merged: Dec 13, 2023

I used to think that free will was limited to facing down stream or up stream while being carried down the river into the Cosmic Ocean. In that scenario, cooperating with the river gives a smoother trip.

These days I consider what the design functionality of the human might contribute to managing parallel timelines/rivers within the Tzimtzum

I think we need to focus on our timeline before we consider others. We are always cooperating with the river by being us regardless of free will as a concept. If we did not do what makes sense to us then why would we be designed that way? (shaped by experience or however you want to look at it). As far as your other point about functionality of the humans the question would be what is the gauge and meaning of functional? That tends to be based on the perspectives of the observer.

 

[Amur]

I have seen that perspective as far as chaos although the word chaos usually has a negative feel to it. As far as geometrical patterns are concerned, I think that is just a way of perceiving it visually. Fear of not having control as a concept stifles the concept of free will. If fear was very low, there would be no reason to fear free will as a concept. Free will is freedom in essence I think for us and the Source. The fear of the unknown causes the concept of free will to be looked at as dangerous but it does not make sense it would be. Look at the state of our reality now, fear is the cause of the problems not free will. When people have much fear they make irrational choices. It is interesting you look at it in terms of geometry and fractals. If we had a low fear existence that would effect the whole of existence I think as everything is connected which would make for beautiful fractals. My thoughts on it.

Post automatically merged: Dec 13, 2023

Fear has got alot to do with it, but nobody can help you through the fear except yourself or training on things for life, as even many masters have said "We can only show you the door but you have to walk through it".

 

[byte007]

Fear has got alot to do with it, but nobody can help you through the fear except yourself or training on things for life, as even many masters have said "We can only show you the door but you have to walk through it".

I agree that people have to face fear themselves for sure but our society has been designed to increase the fear as a tactic for control which will only result in a destructive outcome. If we geared society with positive reinforcement of facing fear and not having it used to increase fear, people would walk through all kinds of doors, positive ones. Most people with high fear tend to cling to it even though it is the reason for much of their unhappiness. Brings to mind a couple of Jim's quotes I liked:
“Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.” I think he was on to something there...
“There are things known and there are things unknown and in between are the doors.”

Post automatically merged: Dec 14, 2023

I used to think that free will was limited to facing down stream or up stream while being carried down the river into the Cosmic Ocean. In that scenario, cooperating with the river gives a smoother trip.

These days I consider what the design functionality of the human might contribute to managing parallel timelines/rivers within the Tzimtzum

I think the quality of the water in the river makes all the difference. If it is clean and healthy going with that makes sense. If it is polluted, the water needs to be cleaned up for it to be healthy. In that metaphor, we are cooperating with it by being who we are based on experience but that can effect the water so to speak. Therefore, fixing the health of the water does require adversity as in personal growth which can lead to a less smooth ride but worth it as it ensures health to the design of it all.

 

[Accipeveldare]

I believe it exists but I think it gets less and less as fear increases in our existence. I think that the Creator/Source is everything all at once and that everything also impacts the Creator/Source's consciousness. Just imagine everything happening all at once everywhere and what that could be like for a consciousness. Of course most want to believe that the Creator/Source can not be effected but if you look at the state of things in our reality it is pretty messed up. In history there is a purge or catastrophe and then a rebirth of sorts. Why would this happen? Why would the Creator/Source have this as a reality instead of no cycle of repetition. That is why I do not like the closed loop infinity symbol. It is repeating over and over again the same thing in a closed loop. i think a straight line with an arrow on each end would be better for infinity in my opinion.
As fear gets higher with humanity, freedom gets taken away as history shows and we are living it and no coincidence that fear is higher than ever in the collective I think. I was thinking that the psychic phenomenon may show this. Why are the true psychic's not always right? Because of free will perhaps? If there is free will the future can not be known completely, there would be probability based on peoples usual choices but if they do not always choose the expected choice, we could not know the future exactly. My take on it. What do you think and why?

I believe in free will deeply. As we may know due to certain political dictators, some people believe it can be take. However, you cant ever truly take free will. As free will implies the ability to think for yourself. We are thinking aren't we? I'd say the answer is obvious. Free will DOES exist. However it gets challenged frequently.

 

[Shade]

I believe it exists but I think it gets less and less as fear increases in our existence. I think that the Creator/Source is everything all at once and that everything also impacts the Creator/Source's consciousness. Just imagine everything happening all at once everywhere and what that could be like for a consciousness. Of course most want to believe that the Creator/Source can not be effected but if you look at the state of things in our reality it is pretty messed up. In history there is a purge or catastrophe and then a rebirth of sorts. Why would this happen? Why would the Creator/Source have this as a reality instead of no cycle of repetition. That is why I do not like the closed loop infinity symbol. It is repeating over and over again the same thing in a closed loop. i think a straight line with an arrow on each end would be better for infinity in my opinion.
As fear gets higher with humanity, freedom gets taken away as history shows and we are living it and no coincidence that fear is higher than ever in the collective I think. I was thinking that the psychic phenomenon may show this. Why are the true psychic's not always right? Because of free will perhaps? If there is free will the future can not be known completely, there would be probability based on peoples usual choices but if they do not always choose the expected choice, we could not know the future exactly. My take on it. What do you think and why?

I didn’t want to quote your whole message but so think you freakin nailed it, this is shown in diffeeent religions. Fear of eating the fruit is what kept Adam and Eve from exercising free will. It was the upper most divine ineffable that truly came to let them know fear is holding back their potential.