WHAT DO WE WANT FROM THE GODS?

[neilwilkes]

Oh, I would absolutely agree with the above - I am simply trying to say why I do not accept any sort of 'god' or 'God' whatsoever. It's all delusional from where I sit. I definitely agree about the old testament character not being a God too - it was certainly not Omniscient, not evcen a little bit as it could not even keep track of 4 people at first - the staement to Cain being 'Where is thy brother, Abel' - the 'Almighty' was not in the know. We also have translational issues in the English too - Elohim is a plural, not singular so whatever they were (and I have my ideas on that, too) there were many of them and they were physical creatures - not any form or spelling of 'God/god'. I have no Hebrew so cannot comment on the translation you give as I have no idea.
Put simply, I do not believe in any God/god whatsoever. This does not necessarily mean they do not exist, only that I do not personally accept they exist. To reiterate, I do accept there are creatures that play at being Gods/gods in order to obtain power & control.

 

[Roma]

The human physical body consists of some trillions of intelligences of which the human consciousness is usually unaware. Awareness increases when large groups of intelligences stop operating properly - e.g. a stomach ache. The human has at best modest control at the cellular level.

Could it be that The Source of All also has a body (the universe) made up of a myriad of intelligences of which It is largely unaware? Perhaps each human is a cell in that body.

As above so below. As below so above.

 

[Xenophon]

Oh, I would absolutely agree with the above - I am simply trying to say why I do not accept any sort of 'god' or 'God' whatsoever. It's all delusional from where I sit. I definitely agree about the old testament character not being a God too - it was certainly not Omniscient, not evcen a little bit as it could not even keep track of 4 people at first - the staement to Cain being 'Where is thy brother, Abel' - the 'Almighty' was not in the know. We also have translational issues in the English too - Elohim is a plural, not singular so whatever they were (and I have my ideas on that, too) there were many of them and they were physical creatures - not any form or spelling of 'God/god'. I have no Hebrew so cannot comment on the translation you give as I have no idea.
Put simply, I do not believe in any God/god whatsoever. This does not necessarily mean they do not exist, only that I do not personally accept they exist. To reiterate, I do accept there are creatures that play at being Gods/gods in order to obtain power & control.

Your closing sentence is pretty insightful. About all I'd say is that said creatures are not necessarily playing at being gods. They are gods, albeit gods with their own agenda and not necessarily benevolent ones.

Post automatically merged: Oct 5, 2023

The human physical body consists of some trillions of intelligences of which the human consciousness is usually unaware. Awareness increases when large groups of intelligences stop operating properly - e.g. a stomach ache. The human has at best modest control at the cellular level.

Could it be that The Source of All also has a body (the universe) made up of a myriad of intelligences of which It is largely unaware? Perhaps each human is a cell in that body.

As above so below. As below so above.

There dawn days when one suspects that man's kinds are mostly melanomas.

 

[Yazata]

sometimes paying attention, others ignoring me, and sometimes playing me. Often inconvenient, but plenty of elbow room left for me.

Is how I feel about it. I approach every new spirit or "god" that I engage with fresh and see what it leads to. Mostly I want knowledge and understanding, and as for material things: a smooth life where I can do the things I want without too much hassle. If nothing comes from the rituals then I wave the entity goodbye.

'Where is thy brother, Abel' - the 'Almighty' was not in the know.

Maybe it was an opportunity for Cain to confess his sins.

 

[Roma]

There dawn days when one suspects that man's kinds are mostly melanomas.

The reason is it so important to oppress Earth humanity is that they have imprinted upon them an energy system that resonates with the very deepest levels of Reality.

The oppression of humans delays their intentional participation in the cosmic ecosystem. At the same time the oppression requires those humans to step up and overcome the adversity - thereby proving that they are ready for swimming in the cosmic ocean

Perhaps the concept of god is part of the oppression system

 

[Xenophon]

The reason is it so important to oppress Earth humanity is that they have imprinted upon them an energy system that resonates with the very deepest levels of Reality.

The oppression of humans delays their intentional participation in the cosmic ecosystem. At the same time the oppression requires those humans to step up and overcome the adversity - thereby proving that they are ready for swimming in the cosmic ocean

Perhaps the concept of god is part of the oppression system

Often enough, it can be. Lately I suspect "liberation" is a red-herring in its own right. A fair number of the more careless stripe of chaos magi exemplify this pretty well: turn druggie sex-toy for people you'd normally shun, eat s*** and smile. All of this because it's empowering...They say.

 

[stratamaster78]

I’m currently trying to break away from the childhood programming of worship or even reverence towards the Abrahamic Pantheon.

It’s tricky because often the rituals I use in Ceremonial Magick lean on that Pantheon for words of power.

I have to sort of ‘Act’ in a play that I still have reverence towards the words.

I’m playing around with altering those rituals to use other Pantheons not because I believe in them more but as an act of opposition to programming so to speak.

Though something pretty funny has been going on…

I’m being constantly beat over the head with the number ‘93’.

I’ll have a random text or call on my phone and the number will end in 93

I will be on my Phone or Tablet and glance at the Battery level and it will be 93%

I will go to the store for groceries and the total will be $93.93

Just non-stop little things like that.

So something is trying to point me towards either diving deeper into Thelema’s Pantheon or maybe even the rituals that sort of go defiantly against the Abrahamic ones.

Maybe it’s even beating me over the head with not doing my ‘True Will’.

I don’t know for sure but it’s been kind of amusing because it’s happening a LOT and usually when I’m actively studying other ‘Gods’.

 

[Roma]

altering those rituals to use other Pantheons

I seem to recall that in ancient times there would the occasional war in the heavens and then all the gods would change

Somewhere in Zechariah Sitchin there is a demonstration that only one set of gods ran the planet at a time.

For example the brother-sister pair of serpents (nagas) that ran Egypt also appear as the pair that founded China

 

[stratamaster78]

I seem to recall that in ancient times there would the occasional war in the heavens and then all the gods would change

Somewhere in Zechariah Sitchin there is a demonstration that only one set of gods ran the planet at a time.

For example the brother-sister pair of serpents (nagas) that ran Egypt also appear as the pair that founded China

I think this is accurate and that from Ancient Sumer to Egypt to Greece and so on many different civilizations have called the same Gods and deities by different names and that these deities are indeed the same but have maybe changed or evolved in some way themselves to go by another identity.

 

[neilwilkes]

Is how I feel about it. I approach every new spirit or "god" that I engage with fresh and see what it leads to. Mostly I want knowledge and understanding, and as for material things: a smooth life where I can do the things I want without too much hassle. If nothing comes from the rituals then I wave the entity goodbye.


Maybe it was an opportunity for Cain to confess his sins.

So the 'Almighty' (sic) YHWH is setting traps again - kinda like the mentality that puts a tree in the middle of a garden, and then specifically points it out saying 'Do not eat from this tree'. That is the type of mentality that puts a lump of iron under a hat with a sign saying 'Kick Me'. How can this be a 'God/god' in any definition of the word?

Post automatically merged: Oct 6, 2023

I’m currently trying to break away from the childhood programming of worship or even reverence towards the Abrahamic Pantheon.

It’s tricky because often the rituals I use in Ceremonial Magick lean on that Pantheon for words of power.

I have to sort of ‘Act’ in a play that I still have reverence towards the words.

I’m playing around with altering those rituals to use other Pantheons not because I believe in them more but as an act of opposition to programming so to speak.

Though something pretty funny has been going on…

I’m being constantly beat over the head with the number ‘93’.

I’ll have a random text or call on my phone and the number will end in 93

I will be on my Phone or Tablet and glance at the Battery level and it will be 93%

I will go to the store for groceries and the total will be $93.93

Just non-stop little things like that.

So something is trying to point me towards either diving deeper into Thelema’s Pantheon or maybe even the rituals that sort of go defiantly against the Abrahamic ones.

Maybe it’s even beating me over the head with not doing my ‘True Will’.

I don’t know for sure but it’s been kind of amusing because it’s happening a LOT and usually when I’m actively studying other ‘Gods’.

That's very interesting indeed - wghen you get beaten over the head like that, then something is for certain trying to get your attention. I still object to the word 'god/God' however, and rather strenuously at that.
As for any of the Abrahamic religions, please don't get me started or we will be here all day whilst I go off on one. All 3 of them (and interestingly enough the more recent the nastier & more vicious they seem to be) use fear of non-compliance as a means of controlling your life and your thoughts when the only thing that has any business doing that is YOU. Perhaps you need to discover or work out your own Words of Power - I have long been of the opinion (not original, although I cannot recall where I read it originally) that all ritual is basically a combination of memnonic and focussing agent for your own Will and a ritual that works for one may well not do anything at all for another, so whilst other people's rituals may suffice as a starting point you eventually need to work your own out and these will be far more efficacious as a result.

I don't know what 93 means to you - Gematria tables all vary considerably depending on what you are using, of course, but 93 in Hebrew Gematria corresponds to both 'Omega' & 'Help' (which could mean either anything or nothing) but the number is seemingly significant in your life at this point - if you would look for your True Purpose in this incarnation then look for that which keeps coming back to you, of course.

Please stop thinking of anything else as 'gods/Gods' though - Every Man & Every Woman Is A Star - which does not mean you are a god/God, but that you are a unique entity in the Universe, and as such the most important entity in your Universe, as no other entity sees the Universe in the same way that you do - even modern 'science' now admits this - and the Universe as you percieve it is unique to you.

 

[Xenophon]

I’m currently trying to break away from the childhood programming of worship or even reverence towards the Abrahamic Pantheon.

It’s tricky because often the rituals I use in Ceremonial Magick lean on that Pantheon for words of power.

I have to sort of ‘Act’ in a play that I still have reverence towards the words.

I’m playing around with altering those rituals to use other Pantheons not because I believe in them more but as an act of opposition to programming so to speak.

Though something pretty funny has been going on…

I’m being constantly beat over the head with the number ‘93’.

I’ll have a random text or call on my phone and the number will end in 93

I will be on my Phone or Tablet and glance at the Battery level and it will be 93%

I will go to the store for groceries and the total will be $93.93

Just non-stop little things like that.

So something is trying to point me towards either diving deeper into Thelema’s Pantheon or maybe even the rituals that sort of go defiantly against the Abrahamic ones.

Maybe it’s even beating me over the head with not doing my ‘True Will’.

I don’t know for sure but it’s been kind of amusing because it’s happening a LOT and usually when I’m actively studying other ‘Gods’.

At least the number showing up is 93 wich is about as un-Abrahamic as it gets. I'm not wild about Thelema, but it's highly preferable to what you're opposing. Hang with it: conditioning can be a b**** getting out of your system. In my youth I spent a year at a seminary, thinking X-ity was the only game in the cosmos.

Post automatically merged: Oct 6, 2023

So the 'Almighty' (sic) YHWH is setting traps again - kinda like the mentality that puts a tree in the middle of a garden, and then specifically points it out saying 'Do not eat from this tree'. That is the type of mentality that puts a lump of iron under a hat with a sign saying 'Kick Me'. How can this be a 'God/god' in any definition of the word?

Post automatically merged: Oct 6, 2023

That's very interesting indeed - wghen you get beaten over the head like that, then something is for certain trying to get your attention. I still object to the word 'god/God' however, and rather strenuously at that.
As for any of the Abrahamic religions, please don't get me started or we will be here all day whilst I go off on one. All 3 of them (and interestingly enough the more recent the nastier & more vicious they seem to be) use fear of non-compliance as a means of controlling your life and your thoughts when the only thing that has any business doing that is YOU. Perhaps you need to discover or work out your own Words of Power - I have long been of the opinion (not original, although I cannot recall where I read it originally) that all ritual is basically a combination of memnonic and focussing agent for your own Will and a ritual that works for one may well not do anything at all for another, so whilst other people's rituals may suffice as a starting point you eventually need to work your own out and these will be far more efficacious as a result.

I don't know what 93 means to you - Gematria tables all vary considerably depending on what you are using, of course, but 93 in Hebrew Gematria corresponds to both 'Omega' & 'Help' (which could mean either anything or nothing) but the number is seemingly significant in your life at this point - if you would look for your True Purpose in this incarnation then look for that which keeps coming back to you, of course.

Please stop thinking of anything else as 'gods/Gods' though - Every Man & Every Woman Is A Star - which does not mean you are a god/God, but that you are a unique entity in the Universe, and as such the most important entity in your Universe, as no other entity sees the Universe in the same way that you do - even modern 'science' now admits this - and the Universe as you percieve it is unique to you.

In Thelema, isn't 93 the number of one's True Will? Kenny G (Kenneth Grant) goes on at great length about the "93 current." There's even a web site out there

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It's a Thelemic site.

 

[Yazata]

setting traps again

I wouldn't think of it like that to be honest. A guilty conscious weighs heavy. Fessing up can bring relief and perhaps God gave Cain the opportunity to do so.

 

[KjEno186]

I’m playing around with altering those rituals to use other Pantheons not because I believe in them more but as an act of opposition to programming so to speak.

In his book, Crossed Keys, Michael Cecchetelli relates from his notes about the conjuration of Frimost using the method outlined in the Black Dragon grimoire:

"I told Frimost my purpose for calling him and what I needed using the statement of intent I wrote out during the conception phase; ... to which he said: 'I am well aware of your desire and what it is you expect from me. Your intent takes shape in the astral plane when you dream and is bare for all there to see as was your intent to cajole and coerce. If it were not my intent to grant this you would not have seen me this night despite your threats, indeed threats which you know you should not and need not utter.' ... He said while it is perfectly fine to seek out he and his kind using teachings of long dead practitioners, it would be folly to fool myself into believing that I can command or force the obedience of those I call with names of gods before whom they refuse to bow."

Now, I have read in other books that angels and demons have no problem working together. This makes sense since the distinction between angels and demons is somewhat arbitrary. A ritual can have attending angels, but perhaps it would be more acceptable if coercion is left out of the spoken ritual.

A guilty conscious weighs heavy.

True that. If one is taught that eating pork is a sin deserving death but discovers the wonders of a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich...
Basically, some guilt is real, but a lot of it isn't, depending on one's culture, religion, and family customs. Even killing can be "sanctified" by the government or church in war, so it's not like there's any absolute morality among humans. The arbitrary 'morality' of the Bible was one of the major factors in my becoming an atheist many years ago.

 

[stratamaster78]

In his book, Crossed Keys, Michael Cecchetelli relates from his notes about the conjuration of Frimost using the method outlined in the Black Dragon grimoire:

"I told Frimost my purpose for calling him and what I needed using the statement of intent I wrote out during the conception phase; ... to which he said: 'I am well aware of your desire and what it is you expect from me. Your intent takes shape in the astral plane when you dream and is bare for all there to see as was your intent to cajole and coerce. If it were not my intent to grant this you would not have seen me this night despite your threats, indeed threats which you know you should not and need not utter.' ... He said while it is perfectly fine to seek out he and his kind using teachings of long dead practitioners, it would be folly to fool myself into believing that I can command or force the obedience of those I call with names of gods before whom they refuse to bow."

Now, I have read in other books that angels and demons have no problem working together. This makes sense since the distinction between angels and demons is somewhat arbitrary. A ritual can have attending angels, but perhaps it would be more acceptable if coercion is left out of the spoken ritual.

Kj I have Crossed Keys and it’s a fantastic little Grimoire. Thanks for reminding me of that gem of an excerpt.

Though to clarify some I didn’t mean standing in Demon counterparts for the Archangels though that would be an interesting experiment at some point for sure.

I meant a completely different Pantheon than Abrahamic in which Angels and Demons are both a part of as Two sides of a Coin.

For example I’m toying with a variation of the LIRP where you trace the Star/Cuneiform of Anu from Mesopotamian/Sumer in the 4 quarters and invoke Deities like Enlil, Enki, Innana, etc and Tap that Current of our ancestors/previous incarnations.

Or the same type of thing by tracing Zeus’s Lightning Bolt in the 4 Quarters and invoking Greek Deities like Aphrodite, Poseidon, etc.

I want to map out several different Pantheons to the classic GD style Ceremonial Rituals and experiment with those currents.

I think the LIRH could also be interesting with this type of experiment and especially since these different pantheons have pretty universally accepted ties to specific planets.

To circle back some on the Crossed Keys excerpt, I’ve personally long thought that the threats during conjuring is a bit crude and unnecessary.

In my view ‘Demons’ are aspects of ourselves in the subconscious or rather even the collective unconscious. If that Demon doesn’t want to appear or doesn’t want to carry out a request then move on to one that is willing.

Lon Milo Duquette has an interesting take to just go ahead and carry out the threats all the way through burning the Seal and destroying the Demon since if it’s not for you it’s against you.

Though to me that sounds a little too much like Anakin Skywalker from Revenge of the Sith before he becomes Vader…lol

Anyway maybe my modified Pantheon Rituals will net some interesting results and if so I may share them in the future.

 

[Xenophon]

I wouldn't think of it like that to be honest. A guilty conscious weighs heavy. Fessing up can bring relief and perhaps God gave Cain the opportunity to do so.

Caught mice blame the mousetrap; canny mice avoid the trap.

 

[neilwilkes]

Kj I have Crossed Keys and it’s a fantastic little Grimoire. Thanks for reminding me of that gem of an excerpt.

Though to clarify some I didn’t mean standing in Demon counterparts for the Archangels though that would be an interesting experiment at some point for sure.

I meant a completely different Pantheon than Abrahamic in which Angels and Demons are both a part of as Two sides of a Coin.

For example I’m toying with a variation of the LIRP where you trace the Star/Cuneiform of Anu from Mesopotamian/Sumer in the 4 quarters and invoke Deities like Enlil, Enki, Innana, etc and Tap that Current of our ancestors/previous incarnations.

Or the same type of thing by tracing Zeus’s Lightning Bolt in the 4 Quarters and invoking Greek Deities like Aphrodite, Poseidon, etc.

I want to map out several different Pantheons to the classic GD style Ceremonial Rituals and experiment with those currents.

I think the LIRH could also be interesting with this type of experiment and especially since these different pantheons have pretty universally accepted ties to specific planets.

To circle back some on the Crossed Keys excerpt, I’ve personally long thought that the threats during conjuring is a bit crude and unnecessary.

In my view ‘Demons’ are aspects of ourselves in the subconscious or rather even the collective unconscious. If that Demon doesn’t want to appear or doesn’t want to carry out a request then move on to one that is willing.

Lon Milo Duquette has an interesting take to just go ahead and carry out the threats all the way through burning the Seal and destroying the Demon since if it’s not for you it’s against you.

Though to me that sounds a little too much like Anakin Skywalker from Revenge of the Sith before he becomes Vader…lol

Anyway maybe my modified Pantheon Rituals will net some interesting results and if so I may share them in the future.

You'll probably find Stephen Skinner's 'The Complete Magicians Tables' invaluable then.
I have this in physical form, but IIRC there is a PDF version here in the library section.

 

[Xenophon]

You'll probably find Stephen Skinner's 'The Complete Magicians Tables' invaluable then.
I have this in physical form, but IIRC there is a PDF version here in the library section.

Me, I mainly peruse materials in aetheric form. My Akashic record collection call it. Physical form is so appallingly 3D

Post automatically merged: Oct 11, 2023

Some odd ideas of what constitutes a 'God' there!
The Genesis quote I would have to agree with Sitchin and say that this sounds like flesh & blood creatures to me, not any sort of God - even with the modern somewhat fast & loose definition offered by the Cambridge Dictionary. By those definitions, political leaders are 'Gods' because they have control over the lives of ordinary citizens - like policemen as well. So I am really, truly sorry buit I cannot accept those definitions - they are not 'Gods' even though a lot of them seem to think they are these days.

What I suspect we have is a case of other intelligences, be they from a different plane or a different location in our universe (or on our plane) pretending to be gods, using religion as a means of control. It's a time-honoured tactic, after all.

It's a fairly common notion that gods can and have interbred with humans. Look at Greek myth, to take the evident example. In Sumerian lore, mankind was an offshoot from Tiamat, goddess of primal chaos. Why this Cartesian prejudice that god stuff must be totally other than human. Could be more coninum than cleavage, no?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Another thread says the gods/spirits/what have you don't give a damn. What attitude DO posters here want, I ask? I mean we have a spectrum running from divine bridegroom as gushes a St. Theresa of Avila, all the way to the casual hostility of the Lovecraftian universe's gods. So, where do your expectations fall? Personally I get along fine with treatment like Wotan's---sometimes paying attention, others ignoring me, and sometimes playing me. Often inconvenient, but plenty of elbow room left for me.

I personally believe there are no gods save those we make ourselves, so if I'm going to all the trouble of making one, they better enter into a spirit of mutual benefit!

 

[Challis]

Wait how can we use magic passed from angels but don't believe in God's. I don't get that. Akala principle? Highest realm of spirit, lying higher than the elemental realms, where the highest point lives - suggested on enochian magic - is Akala.
This is god. You have a monad, this is god. It is not Christian god, but is God nonetheless.
I know we come from different schools of magic, but we need to be able to agree on like, the basics of the foundations of the principles to get anywhere. Otherwise we are literally the same as caveman. Can't we use the actual teachings from actual angels instead of making stuff up and calling other people deluded?

 

[Konsciencia]

Me personally, I don't want anything from the Gods or Goddesses. Instead, I want them... i don't care to much about this physical world.

I don't know if I worship God... But, in the beginning of the day and at night before I go to sleep I gotta give my respect to whoever The Source is, but i like what Kjeno said. About, that in Reality no one deals with the All.. As of now, I'm not doing anything Spiritual except thanking the Creator and my Soul too. A lot of people forget, about the Soul and that one needs to build a great relationship with it. I understand, that a Soul has 5 levels. But, the Soul as a whole need to be respected.