What happens to an ‘old soul’ after many reincarnations?

[HoldAll]

This kind of reminds should there be old souls? This thread touches upon the idea of reincarnation existing but what happens to death? If reincarnation really does exist then it kind of sounds like being endlessly tormented by existing and living for thousands upon maybe millions of years.

Is there a way out of reincarnation? I know some beliefs systems like Buddhism talk about escaping the dharma by living well and escpaing earthly desires.

I don't know but (this is just my own personal take and I admit I haven't thought much about belief systems with reincarnation like buddhism/hinduism) since I thought of death as the one thing you don't have to work for in life. Its the one thing you don't have to earn and it happens to everyone. I'm just throwing ideas out there maybe in another framework of reincarnation souls get old and then stop existing.

I don't know. I mean if reincarnation did exist does that mean death exists or does everything keep on going. Is there an end and a beginning in existence? Its kind of daunting to think about but I guess something I wanted to add to the conversation about old souls and reincarnation.

You're right in many ways. As Buddhists don't believe in divine creation but rather cyclical existence without beginning or end, there's no starting point for becoming an old soul, and as there is no permanent self and thus no immortal soul, the entire concept falls flat here. In fact, the very reason for suffering is clinging to the idea of a permanent self which in turn gives rise to the ego (in the pejorative sense), with all its greed for sensual pleasures, hate for one's enemies, vanity, conceit, etc. The dos and don'ts are much more sophisticated than in other religions - say you give up a vice, feeling all smug and proud of your achievement while looking down on all the other people still in its grip, you generate bad karma, no matter how virtuous your new lifestyle may be now; the Christian fundie slogan "Hate the sin, not the sinner" would still be considered unwholesome in Buddhism because hating something has the same effect as desiring something, you'll remain obsessed and attached to it, only in a negative way while producing loads of bad karma nevertheless. Giving to charity in order to amass merit and thus ensure a more favourable rebirth while feeling indifferent about the plight of the underprivileged wouldn't create good karma either. Hence it's the intention, your motivation, that's a major karmic factor.

As there's no soul in Buddhism, what gets reborn is basically your karma, good or bad. A virtuous life alone won't free you from the cycle of death and rebirth, you have to make an effort to achieve ultimate liberation; good karma may create more beneficial conditions for such an effort but that's all. Excepting unfortunate rebirths, e.g. in a famine area, it's all "As ye sow so shall ye reap": everything follows strictly logical chains of cause and effect, this will give rise to that, that to this, without inexplicable interventions from above as a result of past good deeds.

As all karma has effects on one's subsequent lives, rebirth is not necessarily another chance to get it right or to gather novel experiences; things can go horribly wrong as well, with experiences you really don't want to make. For example, an 'old soul' frequently filled with righteous anger towards infidels, communists, terrorists or whomever is a good candidate for rebirth as a hell-being because hate is never considered beneficial in Buddhism, however morally justified. Such an unfavourable rebirth isn't punishment since there is no punisher in Buddhism, just the blind karma machine. Karma is seen as part of the human condition, and as such it is in fact the law of cause and effect - to which I'd like to add that it's more an entire legal corpus than a single statute in Buddhism.

The path to liberation basically consists of study and meditation (rituals optional). One reinforces the other, I've found - once you sit down on your pillow and try to keep your mind empty, you'll realise what a random mess it really is and that there might be something to that no-self doctrine. Then you read up on it, reflect for some time, return to your pillow and notice that meditation just became a little easier. In Buddhism, however, meditation is not inherently karmically positive. If you close your eyes and indulge in harmful thoughts (and that includes "Damn, I'm so stressed out today!"), you generate bad karma. Or if you're listless and apathetic, the same applies (Tibetan masters sometimes tell novices who fall asleep during meditation that they'll be reborn as whales!). Again, it's not punishment, just a consequence, like a hangover is simply the result of having had too much to drink the previous night.

All this means that it's true that karma is about cause and effect but the applicable Buddhist rulebook is more complex than most people suspect.

[NB: I'm still in the exploratory stages so there may be errors in my understanding of Buddhism.]

 

[Suayakoat]

I would just like to add that I think there is a lot of sense in what you- @Ananda , @Ohana and @HoldAll have said but I refrain the right to just add that there may be one (small) mistake, or rather an addendum to your meditations on the topic of reincarnation and meditation. And that lies within the concept of suffering and its effects on the Soul.

I agree that not merely life, but existence as a cognate being are indispensably linked together-everything in existence must suffer only to make its own existence possible. That is a natural law like any other. And no matter how much we try to end suffering, the ultimate reality not only of that Universe but of existence itself is that we cannot! This is why the only choice we have left with is to either let go of existence altogether, or to find a meaning in suffering-something that can get us through the pain no matter how great it may be.

And this serious of thoughts leads me to the Greatest Choice possible, which I believe all living beings must (eventually) understand and face! Do you live for something, or do you want to die for nothing. In other words can you find something to build up your Soul, something you can invest your being in, no matter how much you must suffer in the process, or do you prefer an endless "bliss" in non-existence itself? And that determines where your Soul would want to go and will end up (eventually). I believe that the Souls that want to liberate themselves from suffering eventually go out of existence altogether-they trade experiences for the "price" of escaping suffering, while the Souls that find something worth existing for give themselves to stimulating that existant as their highest goal. And that can actually turn them into the masters which write the plans for the Universes themselves. Thus, rather than stopping all existence they thrive on it.

And that is what makes the biggest choice a Soul can take and the crux of existence itself!

 

[HoldAll]

I would just like to add that I think there is a lot of sense in what you- @Ananda , @Ohana and @HoldAll have said but I refrain the right to just add that there may be one (small) mistake, or rather an addendum to your meditations on the topic of reincarnation and meditation. And that lies within the concept of suffering and its effects on the Soul.

I agree that not merely life, but existence as a cognate being are indispensably linked together-everything in existence must suffer only to make its own existence possible. That is a natural law like any other. And no matter how much we try to end suffering, the ultimate reality not only of that Universe but of existence itself is that we cannot! This is why the only choice we have left with is to either let go of existence altogether, or to find a meaning in suffering-something that can get us through the pain no matter how great it may be.

And this serious of thoughts leads me to the Greatest Choice possible, which I believe all living beings must (eventually) understand and face! Do you live for something, or do you want to die for nothing. In other words can you find something to build up your Soul, something you can invest your being in, no matter how much you must suffer in the process, or do you prefer an endless "bliss" in non-existence itself? And that determines where your Soul would want to go and will end up (eventually). I believe that the Souls that want to liberate themselves from suffering eventually go out of existence altogether-they trade experiences for the "price" of escaping suffering, while the Souls that find something worth existing for give themselves to stimulating that existant as their highest goal. And that can actually turn them into the masters which write the plans for the Universes themselves. Thus, rather than stopping all existence they thrive on it.

And that is what makes the biggest choice a Soul can take and the crux of existence itself!

The way many Buddhist books describe suffering (dukkha) is that the term is meant to encompass more than just acute pain, illness, and death; some explicitly prefer 'unsatisfactoriness', add 'frustration', or 'existential unease'. You could even say that dukkha ultimately means unhappiness, or ask "Why do so many good things in life eventually end in despair?"

Accordingly, I don't think suffering (or dissatisfaction and frustration) necessarily ennoble the spirit. I used to quip "The only time I really learn is whenever I fall flat on my face!" but don't think that's necessarily true anymore. All too often, suffering only serves to make people retreat even more into their unhappiness, and not everybody bounces back from adversity. If suffering provides valuable lessons, they're frequently lost on the sufferers. The motto "That which does not kill us makes us stronger" may hold true for some but for the rest of us it's "No, what does not kill you merely maims you, cripples you, tortures you, incapacitates you, or traumatizes you!" We admire persons that continue to hold their head up high regardless but tend to ignore the ones who fall through the cracks, give up on themselves, start drinking, become insufferable shits, etc. as a result of their anguish. Religions of necessity have to cater to such cases as well but holding up the resilient ones exclusively as the proud ideal to strive for is nothing but spiritual fascism in my mind ("Serves them right if they're not self-aware!").

As a result, I don't think that suffering is inherently a propitious chance to become a better person and not at all a valid means of spiritual purification. Suffering won't make you necessarily wiser - it can provided it leaves your capacity for self-reflection reasonably intact but will most likely cloud your mind and make you even more stubborn or desperate. Thinking clearly while having a toothache or being heartbroken? Not so easy.

Instead of consciously accepting suffering (or unhappiness, frustration, etc.) as a consequence of your choice to 'build up your soul', you could also investigate where your suffering is actually coming from, what causes it, and make that question your starting point. For example, it's been my experience that suffering will inevitably arise as a result of friction between my own ideals and real life. I was kind of aware of it but perversely loved to be a martyr for my own noble cause too much. There's probably no solution for it, everybody lives for their own principles to some extent, but now I've found that it helps to recognise the pattern whenever it raises its head and avoid becoming aggressive once the 'ideal me' appears to be threatened by other people's criticism.

Mind you, spiritual endeavours in and of themselves may become traps. If I pursued my practice the same way as I used to follow my other ideals, I'd probably end up as a self-centred fanatic blind to any alternative views (and I regret to say that sometimes feel like I'm doing just that!).

 

[Suayakoat]

@HoldAll I agree with what you are saying here and find your resume of the Buddhist perspective on dukkha interesting. I just wanted to present my own point of view on the matter which is my understanding of a two-prone way according to which we must (eventually) choose to either reject dukkha and actively work toward liberation which will mean the end of our Soul, or, conversely, accept that life and suffering are intricately connected and one goes with the other and so arrange our lives in a manner of striving for some goal higher than merely rejecting suffering. A goal that builds you up and in a way gives meaning to all the suffering you have suffered, suffer at the moment and will suffer in the future. (It's also my personal belief that this goal will (eventually) lead you down a path of evolution and self-development that will build you as a real God providing a whole new form of existence where you will be creating an entire Universe in accord with your own vision of the state of affairs that best suits yourself but I digress.)

Thus, what constitutes the biggest choice not merely in one's life but in one's existence is precisely that dichotomy point of either choosing to end your suffering in exchange for eternal bliss in non-existence, or, conversely, accepting that all life contains a measure of suffering and find a goal worth of it. I know that the second option is not "very Buddhist" but I stand by my words and promote precisely that choice not because I don't believe in the doctrine of liberation but precisely because I do believe liberation is possible but there IS something more desirable (at least for me) than it. At least, that is what I believe in and will be curious to know your thoughts (no matter whether you will be speaking as a Buddhist or not) on this second option.

P.S.: I also think that discussion about the second option fits in neatly with the topic of this thread, namely, the path before an old soul after many reincarnations for the way I see it an old soul has only two options ahead of it-either get rid of the dukkha and strive toward a liberation in the non-existence, or try building an Universe on its own where its own will will dictate the rules of that world and that can only happen if it goes on to work towards escaping this Universe/creation/plan with a plan of its own. At least, that is what I believe in.