What is new in Magic and the Occult?

[Taudefindi]

This is something that was in my head when I was doing some of my own practices yesterday.

The world keeps spinning around, time passes, new knowledge is discovered/learned and things change.
Or they should change.

Yet, it always seemed a bit odd to me how we don't tend to hear much about innovations when it comes to the world of magic and occultism in general.Sure, the classics are the classics for a reason, and it's always good to learn what those before spoke of since their own knowledge is based on the experiences of those before them, and so on and so forth(or so backwards if I may say so).

But it's strange how most people seem to be fine with keeping up with stuff that is decades or even centuries old and they see no problem in not trying to improve, to change or to make new things when it comes to magic and the occult.At most what some do is no more than re-inveting the wheel, just giving it a new name but treading the same steps as those did in the past.

It's as if somewhere down the line most people just stopped trying to find new things and new ways and decided "Nope, the way things are is good enough, we don't need to seek more." and that was it.Most people don't question "the classics", they just follow them dutifully and don't even dare try to step out of it.Which, fair, I can see the appeal of doing something that many others consider to be "the way" and it isn't an issue if someone prefers to stick to the "true and tested" methods.But to see that there doesn't seem to be any incentive of sorts for innovations is a bit of a bummer.

It's similar to the way I spoke of how people train for psychokinesis/telekinesis in another post, they all keep doing the old psi-wheel and treat it as the only tool/method available.They don't seek to go outside the barrel, they don't seek to find something that works better for them, they just accept the "old and tested" way as the only way and leave at it.

But maybe I'm speaking bullshit, maybe I just don't know of groups that are activelly seeking new ways to deal with magic and occultism and I am here talking of something that also bothers others to the point that they actually went after it and even found new ways of doing it.But as they're closed organizations they don't intend to spill the beans to the rest.

So I'm a bit curious here, do you know(or have done/is in the process of making) a new way of using magic or a new occult practice?

Spoiler: ps

This is not a rant, it's just one of my intrusive thoughts that became a whole discussion in my head.I'm a curious person but not so much sociable, so I am here asking if you(yes, YOU) have learned anything new that isn't the classic works/methods.

 

[8Lou1]

youre not speaking bullshit. i got annoyed when everybody was in awe of albert pikes morals and dogmas instead of creating their own. that being said in order to still be able to communicate its nice to understand what people mean with certain terms, especially with otherkin terms on soul level. and sometimes its just that and you need to learn to laugh at it.
for example:
ive done a whole lot of research on islam online and now the avatarpic generator of wf gives me an islamic/arabic looking text picture. even if i would be a burka chick im annoyed by the fact that somewhere an ai generated toy decided it needs me to be that online.

on the other hand wifisurfing is a new thing and thats pretty damn cool to do. although looking at others do it gives me the freaks. like your avatar @Taudefindi. i once went to a shoppingmall owned by westfield. i saw some kids wifisurf and went look daka( sportshop) next to casa ( homeliving shop) and i went out to smoke a cigarette and the cig got kicked out of my hand. daka marrakechia is a musicform thats often played at moroccan parties and casa means home. they use green letters for it, so i went look daka marrakechia nad casa chadera which means green. and now you have an avatar with a hand with a cigarette and you happen to join just after the event. oww i also helped an italian dude at tony's to gain some buyers for his delicious pizza's. i couldnt understand a word he said. he spoke dutch with my husband when we ordered, but all i heared was italian ramble of his soul. when i left he said cia bella and i said bonjourno, gracie. i left him yelling in italian its not morning chick. on the other side of his corner was a blue tree from the movie avatar.

now thats new.

Post automatically merged: Apr 14, 2024

bta i asked the kids why???? and they said prenatal ( i got a belly)

Post automatically merged: Apr 14, 2024

ughh sorry for the bad spelling, im tired.

Post automatically merged: Apr 14, 2024

i also was irritated at all those new genders. you know a body with a pussy is a woman and one with a dick is a man. it just didnt do the trick anymore. which for me might had to do with making love with my animus while being in a relationship with friends, spirits, etc. things got uhum..
so i thought why not a new form, more neutral. so i thought up animum and there seem to be animo for that. the endresult looks a bit like those pics in the goetia and i call them my kids. like the whore of babylon who rode just the 7 and gave birth to all those old abominations.

 

[KjEno186]

Innovation happens when one takes all that they've learned so far, and then puts that knowledge into active use (and it is an ongoing process). All the books in the world won't make the armchair surgeon into an actual practicing physician. It is through the practice of time-tested rituals that the beginner comes to understand magic. However, change occurs on a cultural level with each new generation. Thus, if one is fairly well educated, it is the knowledge of one's time which also informs magical practice. Éliphas Lévi lived in a cosmopolitan time period far more advanced in many ways than the Renaissance mages, and he attempted to explain magic to his contemporaries by relating what he had learned into the ways of thinking in his time period.

The early 20th Century saw advancement in the psychological sciences. As I'm currently reading New Pathways in Psychology: Maslow & the Post-Freudian Revolution by Colin Wilson, it is interesting to see how each student of Freud took the science in a different direction based on what each one found most interesting, or personally applicable. I see magic in much the same way, and for this reason it is up to each magician to learn and practice according to their interests the kind of magic that seems most suitable for their culture and temperament.

I think the generational change in magic in the 20th Century was most apparent from the gap between the period of the Golden Dawn and its offshoots, and the rise of the Chaos magic movement. Where will the next "innovation" come from? Will it be evolution or revolution?

 

[8Lou1]

to answer your last question with a catmeme i read today: her love language is anger.

 

[KjEno186]

@8Lou1 , please make posts that are understandable and on topic.

 

[Taudefindi]

now you have an avatar with a hand with a cigarette and you happen to join just after the event

I would say coincidence, but what can be coincidence to one may not be so to another.

Innovation happens when one takes all that they've learned so far, and then puts that knowledge into active use

I don't intend to presume, but I would guess that out of all people learning from the old works, at least a decent enough number of them would've introduced something new by now.I mean we are talking about a period time of decades or even centuries, enough time for at least some changes, isn't it?

it is up to each magician to learn and practice according to their interests the kind of magic that seems most suitable for their culture and temperament.

Guess that if I want to see changes, then I have to work on doing them.It isn't that I dislike the old works but sometimes it feels like people get so complacent towards them that they forget or don't even care to try new things and go out of their way to do different(some might even act dimissive or hostile towards those trying to bring in new ways).

You can't find new paths when all you do is walk the same paths over and over.

Where will the next "innovation" come from? Will it be evolution or revolution?

Let's hope for evolution because revolution usually brings with it an entire can of worms of it's own.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

This is something that was in my head when I was doing some of my own practices yesterday.

The world keeps spinning around, time passes, new knowledge is discovered/learned and things change.
Or they should change.

How has it not changed? Perhaps, relatively to the classics it has changed.
Prior to Dee and Kelly, we had Barrett and Agrippa, which were relatively similar.
Post Dee and Kelly, Thelema and the GD adopted the Enochian system, even LaVey did.
From Thelema we received a more conslcise understanding and working Goetia system.
Gallery of Magic likewise has expanded on the Shemhamphoresh, Goetia, and Words of Power that were based on old name tables.

Yet, it always seemed a bit odd to me how we don't tend to hear much about innovations when it comes to the world of magic and occultism in general.Sure, the classics are the classics for a reason, and it's always good to learn what those before spoke of since their own knowledge is based on the experiences of those before them, and so on and so forth(or so backwards if I may say so).

Pathworkings and Words of Power are two recent innovations.

But it's strange how most people seem to be fine with keeping up with stuff that is decades or even centuries old and they see no problem in not trying to improve, to change or to make new things when it comes to magic and the occult.At most what some do is no more than re-inveting the wheel, just giving it a new name but treading the same steps as those did in the past.

Quareia has entered stage left.

It's as if somewhere down the line most people just stopped trying to find new things and new ways and decided "Nope, the way things are is good enough, we don't need to seek more." and that was it.Most people don't question "the classics", they just follow them dutifully and don't even dare try to step out of it.Which, fair, I can see the appeal of doing something that many others consider to be "the way" and it isn't an issue if someone prefers to stick to the "true and tested" methods.But to see that there doesn't seem to be any incentive of sorts for innovations is a bit of a bummer.

It's similar to the way I spoke of how people train for psychokinesis/telekinesis in another post, they all keep doing the old psi-wheel and treat it as the only tool/method available.They don't seek to go outside the barrel, they don't seek to find something that works better for them, they just accept the "old and tested" way as the only way and leave at it.

But maybe I'm speaking bullshit, maybe I just don't know of groups that are activelly seeking new ways to deal with magic and occultism and I am here talking of something that also bothers others to the point that they actually went after it and even found new ways of doing it.But as they're closed organizations they don't intend to spill the beans to the rest.

So I'm a bit curious here, do you know(or have done/is in the process of making) a new way of using magic or a new occult practice?

Spoiler: ps

This is not a rant, it's just one of my intrusive thoughts that became a whole discussion in my head.I'm a curious person but not so much sociable, so I am here asking if you(yes, YOU) have learned anything new that isn't the classic works/methods.

Post automatically merged: Apr 14, 2024

Also, chaos Magick.

 

[Vandheer]

So I'm a bit curious here, do you know(or have done/is in the process of making) a new way of using magic or a new occult practice?

Fusing magick with technology would be the logical step, especially with ai on the rise. I like the old methods better but if I was forced to invent, I would go that route. Radionics is one such route.

 

[Taudefindi]

How has it not changed? Perhaps, relatively to the classics it has changed.

I can't explain properly, reading some of the materials it feels like not much changed or that they just used different nomenclature for stuff that already existed.

Pathworkings and Words of Power are two recent innovations.

How recent are we talking here?

Quareia has entered stage left.

True, I forgot Quareia.

Also, chaos Magick.

Isn't chaos magick already a decades old system though?At it's core it seems to be no more than mixing a bit of everything that already exists.

Fusing magick with technology would be the logical step

That's an interesting idea.Though I have to admit that it's also a scary one.
But it reminds me a bit of a TTRPG called Shadowrun, where spirit/magic and technology co-exist with each other.

Radionics is one such route.

Haven't heard this word since the first time I've heard about psionics.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Pathworkings, those are relatively modern as far as I know. Words of Power also seem to be modern.

 

[stratamaster78]

It's an interesting question and difficult to answer.

I haven't really thought about it before to be honest because I tend to stick to 'Modern' Lodge Magick for the most part and while yes the late 1800's and early 1900's when their methods were developed is a long time ago relative to the avg life span it's also not that long ago relative to all of human history.

So with that perspective everything that has already been mentioned above like Chaos Magick, and Pathworking, and Quareia seems brand spanking new in comparison for me.

But then sometimes I think "What more CAN you do?"

For me Magick is like Music in a way.

There are only so many 'Notes' and so many Techniques for the Instrument you play.

You start out learning those notes and how to play the scales and then when you have those down you play songs or make music within the Genre that you are into.

But like our world's actual music their are only so many instruments and genre's that are widely known and to be honest at this point everything is pretty derivative and in a lot of cases the 'Classics' are still superior.

I mean the last real innovations there was going from Acoustic to Electric in what the 50's? Then Effects came along in the 60's and 70's and 80's.

But I mean hey Jimi Hendrix did things on a Guitar in the late 60's that blew his contemporaries completely away. He changed the sounds of the Electric Guitar forever and people are still copying him and no one has really revolutionized the instrument like that except for maybe Van Halen in the 80's with Tapping.

So with Magick we are kind of in a similar place where there are lots of Paths and Styles and Methods to play Magickal notes so to speak and they all seem to be pretty effective in their own ways and some are more derivative than others.

I don't know if Magick has already gone from Acoustic to Electric or not but it seems like the Notes are the Notes. We all play different Instruments and Styles and in different genres but for now their isn't a 13th note.

Maybe somebody will come up with a new Method but it's hard to envision it from where things are now.

 

[8Lou1]

@KjEno186 : OP asked new ways in the world of magick, i gave 3 examples, 1 about mememagick, 1 about online randomizers with pictures in it and 1 about wifi surfing. that you dont understand what im saying doesnt mean it isnt new or non existing. and since you dont know about all of them how can you say i speak nonsense if you dont even know what i am talking about.

@Taudefindi: it might sound as an coincidink, but when youve seen it happen more then how many times is it real? i just took your avatar as example ,cause youre the OP and wondered about something new, for me its normal to see things like that.

anyways im done being made a fool. i gave examples of new things, noone cares and went back to oww yeah new is fake lets go the old route again. as you said yourself, its sad.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

so I am here asking if you have learned anything new that isn't the classic works/methods.

I've spent thirty years searching for a scientific explanation of magic, to link up our most successful physical theories with magic to explain why magic works, as opposed to how it works.
The only other person I know to have attempted this was Peter Carroll (and even he got sidetracked by cosmology)
So I think that's pretty new.

 

[HoldAll]

What we are seeing right now in magic is an explosion of information concerning wildly different systems and formerly localised, isolated tradititions, so the current trend is towards eclectiscism - which, too, shall pass once it has run its course and exhaused itself. So here is some unstructured brainstorming about what may come next:

• Parapsychology is basically magic with all the woo-woo removed, so maybe it's time to put the woo-woo back in and let spirits move the psi-wheel, door or whatever? Or is there another way to gain psychic abilities of which no one has ever thought before?
• 
  
• I have been toying with this new model of magic lately that goes beyond the energy and information model using 'meaning' as the driving force of magic in order to avoid the scientistic connotations of 'energy' and 'information' and return to a more philosophical understanding of magic (after all, 'information' doesn't necessarily have to make sense and is too neutral a term). But I'm currently stumped because I'm unsure of the advantages and/or implications of such a 'model of meaning'. Would it really change things or the way we do magic in practice? I haven't come far with this idea and will probably scrap it anyway.
• 
  
• In the mundane world, it's technology that changes rapidly, not so much people's mentalities which are often lagging behind. Is new technology really the answer, like @Vandheer suggested? Or new 'tech' in the sense of 'technique'? It will be probably our brains that will have to learn new tricks (assisted by AI?), a new brand of incense for example is unlikely to make any difference.
• 
  
• I sometimes wonder why no one has ever thought of bringing the PGM idea of the Supernatural Assistant (it's different from the HGA and much more powerful) to the present day and age and develop it further. Could it be designed from the ground up like a sort of super-servitor or near-omnipotent familiar? Is there some pre-existing template for personal egregores somewhere in the astral, one that magicians could exploit without depending on the input of other users of magic?
• 
  
• Totally new and more sophisticated ways of contacting the spirits. People are still wont to treat them as they were living, breathing beings with distinct personalities similar to those of humans (evil, friendly, easily offended, helpful, stern, loving, etc.), which strikes me as a bit naive. Granted, there are limits to our weak attempts to understand the ineffable but are we totally unable to push the envelop a bit further?

I could probably dream up some more crazy ideas but it would take some much more advanced practitioners than me to even attempt to implement them.

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2024

Addendum: The Henochian 'angels' may be in case in point. Judging from the accounts we have, they acted so unpredictably and capriciously as to defy the traditional angel/demon categorization. Are there more beings like them out there (or in our heads, depending on the model you favour)? We have gotten over the age-old good/bad dichotomy, so are we equipped now to handle beings that are totally alien to our way of thinking? Ok, now we're getting into Lovecraft and sci-fi territory... maybe people would rather stick to tradition and enjoy their successes than groping in a novel dark to little or no avail.

 

[SkullTraill]

@KjEno186 : OP asked new ways in the world of magick, i gave 3 examples, 1 about mememagick, 1 about online randomizers with pictures in it and 1 about wifi surfing. that you dont understand what im saying doesnt mean it isnt new or non existing. and since you dont know about all of them how can you say i speak nonsense if you dont even know what i am talking about.

Yes, but please keep your replies concise and to the point. I understand that you're trying to answer some things in your own way, but sometimes it's like 5-10% on topic, and the rest of it is some wifi surfing, random story about some random event that took place in your life that barely relates to the post, catmemes and random thoughts about pussies and dicks.

Those aren't helpful to the conversation, really, as this isn't a journal or a therapy session where you get to pour out everything on your mind and somehow find a lackluster way to just barely tie them all together to make it SEEM relevant to the thread.

I could make a post in this thread with 1000 words about chinese hot pot, and at the end of it all a couple sentences with some nonsense about how hotpot is "a modern form of herbalism" that doesn't make it on-topic or useful to this thread. I see quite a few members trying to get away with off-topic posting by making some type of forced connection to the topic within an off-topic rambling, and it's something that will get warnings issued in the future.

Keep this thread focused and on-topic, please. Don't reply to my post, PM me if you have an issue with what I've just said.

I'm expecting the rest of this thread to stay on topic, and if not, warnings will be issued.

 

[Mannimarco]

Not much is new in Magic and the Occult, I think for several reasons. New things don't tend to be well received in the occult world, there is often a lot of push back if someone does something new or different. So new things might actually be happening here and there, but people just keep their mouths shut and don't share. Western magick also tends to be based on solitary work and books, and this model might be falling into the sub/unconcious patterns established by judeo/christian religions of holy scriptures. Replicating what the book says, instead of thinking for yourself. Anyone trying to change the status quo gets crucified now, and worshipped later, etc.

To my way of thinking, in the modern industrialized world, there is less and less "room" for magick to even manifest. Our societies are so highly regulated and controlled that there are less possible manifestation paths than ever. I remember my grandfathers stories about all the crazy random stuff that was just normal life. It was certainly more chaotic than life now, but also had way more potential for magickal manifestations. As an extreme example, imagine trying to do wealth magick in North Korea. There is one manifestion path, the government, and most of the countries resources go to blocking that path from deviating in any way. Less manifestation possibilities, less magick in general, less inovation.

There are some folks doing newish things, sort of near to magick and the occult, if not actually part of it. But I haven't observed any of them having much in the way of success. The new age people have some ideas that could be real gems, like the idea of human conciousness co creating reality with the universe/Source. But its a potential post graduate idea supported by pre school beliefs and practices, and they all seem to get wrecked sooner or later. The extra terrestrial channelers could also be said to be doing new things, but they don't do any practices at all that ive seen, and basically just wait for the aliens to come save them. Not a great plan.

 

[KjEno186]

So new things might actually be happening here and there, but people just keep their mouths shut and don't share.

I honestly don't see this to be the case. While there is substantial resistance to "the new" in established sciences, there is no formal governance of The Occult, as it were. Frankly, I never imagined that there were so many books written on magic and the occult before I joined this forum. One might counter that most authors and books simply regurgitate the same information over and over again, but there are nuggets of gold among the dross.

trying to do wealth magick in North Korea

Interestingly, Bret and Heather (evolutionary biologists) at the Darkhorse Podcast suggest we're all living in "North Korea"...

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The title of that is "Intellectual Stockholm Syndrome," and that is not as far removed from the topic under discussion as one might initially believe. Why is there no "NEW MAGIC"? What if our perception(s) of reality have been managed to such an extent that we cannot perceive what exists beyond what we're told to believe, rather like indoctrinated cult members whose world view narrows to a specific set of beliefs (materialism), or political prisoners who come to agree with their captors (mainstream media consumers of propaganda)?

Even Freud, once an outsider to the establishment, himself became the one against whom the rest would be compared. To this day people associate sex and neurosis primarily thanks to Freud's work of treating the mentally ill. According to Colin Wilson, "Jung tells a curious story of Freud saying: ‘My dear Jung, promise me never to abandon the sexual theory. . .’ in the tone of a father saying to his son: ‘Promise me to go to church every Sunday’. The sexual theory seemed to Freud a mountain of truth towering above the foothills of 19th-century rationalism and occultism; he was committed to it like the worshipper to his God. He was the Moses who had been chosen to bring the tables of the law. (Jones mentions that the figure of Moses came to obsess Freud from the 1890s on.)" - New Pathways in Psychology. And yet, Freud was just looking at a small part of the picture of reality. Those who followed his work also narrowed their perception of reality to conform to his views. Thankfully, psychologists like Otto Rank recognized other important aspects of human consciousness, particularly The Will.

The Will is prominent in the teachings of the Golden Dawn and Chaos magicians. Don Webb wrote in How to Become a Modern Magus, "Any student of magic should examine the etymologies of the ideas they use. Magicians realize that ideas come from embodied humans—they have aspects beyond both their content and current usage. Magical ideas will tend to serve their creators; if you wish to use them, you must honor their intent and evolve it—otherwise, they will use you."

And then one might ask for "proof". That always seems inevitable. There is the age-old desire to point to a thing and declare, "IT IS!"... much like how Galileo is reported to have said, "And yet it moves" in front of the Inquisition. We live in a time of skepticism, so people no longer believe that Galileo actually said such a thing. It is fashionable in some circles to deny that men walked upon the moon. Colin Wilson devotes a significant portion of his book, Beyond the Occult, to explaining how even psychic researchers had a strong tendency to doubt their own work over and over again. Such was the conditioning of our culture, perhaps even the current state of our evolution, to reject that which seems impossible. Does it really serve the magician to try to prove anything to skeptics? Perhaps time and effort are better spent elsewhere.

Jung had an extremely active subconscious—even more so than Freud. He describes how, when Freud was inveighing against ‘the occult’, he suddenly felt as if his diaphragm was becoming red hot, and there was a loud explosion in the bookcase. Jung declared that this was an example of the subconscious ‘exteriorising’ itself. Freud said nonsense.​

​

“It is not,” I replied. “You are mistaken, Herr Professor. And to prove my point I now predict that in a moment there will be another loud report!” Sure enough, no sooner had I said these words than the same detonation went off in the bookcase.’ Freud, apparently, stared aghast. - New Pathways in Psychology, Wilson​

So, what's "new" in magic? To Will, to Know, to Dare, and to be Silent. What's old is new again.

 

[Mannimarco]

Why is there no "NEW MAGIC"? What if our perception(s) of reality have been managed to such an extent that we cannot perceive what exists beyond what we're told to believe, rather like indoctrinated cult members whose world view narrows to a specific set of beliefs (materialism), or political prisoners who come to agree with their captors (mainstream media consumers of propaganda)?

Completely agree

While there is substantial resistance to "the new" in established sciences, there is no formal governance of The Occult, as it were. Frankly, I never imagined that there were so many books written on magic and the occult before I joined this forum. One might counter that most authors and books simply regurgitate the same information over and over again, but there are nuggets of gold among the dross.

I remember Scott Michael Stenwick saying on his blog, that he had more advanced books ready, but no publisher was interested in anything beyond beginner level content. Presumably the pool of buyers shrinks so fast with more advanced material that its unprofitable to publish. I think I even recall him saying he would "sneak" intermediate materiel into beginner books, just to get it out there. Hopefullly this changes with more self marketed ebooks in the future.

Obviously its true that there is no formal governance in the occult, but there are established cultures that self enforce/self police to various degree's. Thats the kind of thing I was thinking of.

I honestly don't see this to be the case.

You may be right in general, perhaps if people were doing new things they would have come forward and presented those ideas to the larger community. Myself, I have channeled/developed several "new" magickal techniques that I haven't shared, nor do I plan to. They combine different currents and approaches with original content that I have never seen anywhere else. (My tulpa came up with the original part Nothing revolutionary, but they've been most helpful. The purists of those systems would be horrified and enraged if I were to share my hybrid techniques publically, and fighting them is just not worth the trouble. I haven't done anything that anyone else couldn't do, so I assume others are doing the same as me, and keeping quiet for the same reasons.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Perhaps an expectation of what's meant by New Magic would be helpful. Spirits are spirits and only know so much.

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

The phrase "the more things change, the more they stay the same" comes to mind. Things work in cycles, and nothing is ever really original; you can trace the development of processes and ideas to the media the creators consumed and the people they talked to, who in turn developed their ideas and processes based upon other people's stuff.

You see it in everything, not just the occult. In California they banned detachable box magazines on AR-15 rifles (sort of), so there are now companies making 'modernized' stripper clips that feed in through the ejection port, taking a century old idea and putting a modern twist on it. In cities taxi cabs used to be the main way for people to get around, but the industry has been losing money for decades, but now ridesharing apps like Uber and Lyft are letting people who have a car and time make money doing 'taxi driver' work without needing to be part of a taxi service or dedicating their entire life to it.

Point is, nothing ever is new, it's just ideas older than dirt being rehashed to fit the current trends and market for the Nth time. Why would the occult be any different? As much as you think wholly new ideas can be created in a vacuum, people can't exist in a vacuum, and innovations come as a result of someone trying to solve a problem. Chaos magic works on the principles that the mind is the power behind magic, not ritual or external forces, which is just diet-hermeticism when you boil it down to it's most fundamental bits. Wicca is just traditional witchcraft repackaged for more modern people. Ceremonial magic, for all of the good things about it, is so steeped in dogma that it's more religion than art at this point. Left hand path stuff has always been a bit edgy but now it's edgy-ing it up to market and appeal to younger people.

At the end of the day it's all recycling, rebranding, and repurposing.