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From my experience, the magicians and the scientists are equally appalled that their fields might be connected to one another.
The magicians (some I've met at any rate) are terrified that magic will no longer be magic if it has a proper explanation, and the scientists (mostly) are terrified that the stuff they've spent years slagging off might actually be part of their field.
It was Max Planck, the man who invented quantum physics, who said (I paraphrase) "Science advances one funeral at a time". i.e. the old guys don't suddenly accept the new ideas, they just die off and the new guys who do accept the new ideas, take over.
I personally think that human conservatism (with a small 'c') means that this is true in almost every field. "Artists are never appreciated in their own lifetime" being a generalised cliche for a reason.
I'm sorry if this comes over as sounding a little bitter, but I've found out what it's like to be caught in the crossfire. The scientists don't believe it (to the point where they won't read it) and the magicians don't want to know (to the point where they won't read it)
What we are seeing right now in magic is an explosion of information concerning wildly different systems and formerly localised, isolated tradititions, so the current trend is towards eclectiscism - which, too, shall pass once it has run its course and exhaused itself. So here is some unstructured brainstorming about what may come next:
Parapsychology is basically magic with all the woo-woo removed, so maybe it's time to put the woo-woo back in and let spirits move the psi-wheel, door or whatever? Or is there another way to gain psychic abilities of which no one has ever thought before?
I have been toying with this new model of magic lately that goes beyond the energy and information model using 'meaning' as the driving force of magic in order to avoid the scientistic connotations of 'energy' and 'information' and return to a more philosophical understanding of magic (after all, 'information' doesn't necessarily have to make sense and is too neutral a term). But I'm currently stumped because I'm unsure of the advantages and/or implications of such a 'model of meaning'. Would it really change things or the way we do magic in practice? I haven't come far with this idea and will probably scrap it anyway.
In the mundane world, it's technology that changes rapidly, not so much people's mentalities which are often lagging behind. Is new technology really the answer, like @Vandheer suggested? Or new 'tech' in the sense of 'technique'? It will be probably our brains that will have to learn new tricks (assisted by AI?), a new brand of incense for example is unlikely to make any difference.
I sometimes wonder why no one has ever thought of bringing the PGM idea of the Supernatural Assistant (it's different from the HGA and much more powerful) to the present day and age and develop it further. Could it be designed from the ground up like a sort of super-servitor or near-omnipotent familiar? Is there some pre-existing template for personal egregores somewhere in the astral, one that magicians could exploit without depending on the input of other users of magic?
Totally new and more sophisticated ways of contacting the spirits. People are still wont to treat them as they were living, breathing beings with distinct personalities similar to those of humans (evil, friendly, easily offended, helpful, stern, loving, etc.), which strikes me as a bit naive. Granted, there are limits to our weak attempts to understand the ineffable but are we totally unable to push the envelop a bit further?
I could probably dream up some more crazy ideas but it would take some much more advanced practitioners than me to even attempt to implement them.
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Addendum: The Henochian 'angels' may be in case in point. Judging from the accounts we have, they acted so unpredictably and capriciously as to defy the traditional angel/demon categorization. Are there more beings like them out there (or in our heads, depending on the model you favour)? We have gotten over the age-old good/bad dichotomy, so are we equipped now to handle beings that are totally alien to our way of thinking? Ok, now we're getting into Lovecraft and sci-fi territory... maybe people would rather stick to tradition and enjoy their successes than groping in a novel dark to little or no avail.
That happens a lot in many fields actually.On one hand it makes sense, since "new things" tend to usually be unproved or might seem strange to those "outside", but that's how we get innovations, by trying new things and implementing them once they pass whatever tests we give them.
Honestly though,
in regards to the occult it is my belief that most people don't even want new things because they don't want to start questioning their own methods or get into a "belief crisis between systems" or something.They want to stay comfortable on what is commonly considered to work.
Replicating what the book says, instead of thinking for yourself. Anyone trying to change the status quo gets crucified now, and worshipped later, etc.
You think so?I think differently.
I do agree that societies are highly regulated, no question on that front, but I disagree with the "less possible manifestation paths".
New Age stuff is either a hit or miss, but your phrase made me think that maybe I should check up some of their things and see if I don't get some inspiration from that.
But could it be said that the work of some mages/magicians of old kind of set parameters for others to follow, and those ended up being sort of guidelines to many?If most people agree on something, regardless if is true or not, it will be considered "the way".
Perception is a big part of my own work, as despite we all living in the same universe, at the end of the day the only POV and perception you can really get and rely on, is yours.
So working with your own perception might be one of the keys in working with magic.
I'm the same.I keep doing my trainings, keep a log of it, and yet I can't always brush away that sliver of doubt if what I'm doing will ever bear fruit or if it will always be a disappointment.Until I get a solid result, something that I cannot claim to be bias or call "coincidence", I'll stay this way.
On the other hand I'm living for this.To prove that the impossible can be done, just like a kid trying to prove an adult that what seems hard to get is just all in their head and in actuality it's easy.
The loftiest of goals if I may say so.But it's good to have some imposing goals in one's life, makes it more exciting.
It makes sense from a logical point.Publishers mostly only want to publish books that they're sure there will be a certain number of people wanting to buy them, otherwise they won't make profit and bussinesses are all about profits.
And I also imagine that the frustration of some may also play into them not seeking higher content since they're either stuck on the basics or get discouraged by the basics and give up.
The purists of those systems would be horrified and enraged if I were to share my hybrid techniques publically, and fighting them is just not worth the trouble.
Their loss, I for one think that this would be something interesting.
After all what once was considered magic became "known phenomena" through science.But there are still things that we can't really explain(fully) with science alone.Not our current science anyway.
Not entirely related but marginally so, this reminded of some illusionists' discussions in regard to those that do show to "common people" how some magic tricks works.They say that it "takes away the magic of it" but I honestly get even more fascinated when I discover how they work, because it stops being "because of magic" and starts being "because of hard work and dedication that transformed into skill and ingenuity".
I agree with your view in this.
The amount of papers I've seen in regard to parapsychology(for example) and the reactions of "serious scientists" towards them and the whole field of study...wild.I admit there are many charlatans, fakers and delusional people in it but there are also those that truly seek to understand these phenomena.
As for magicians, sometimes it feels a bit like being in the middle of an argument with zealots.They don't want to have to question their deep-set beliefs and paths, they seek the comfort of feeling like they know everything there is to know already.
I completely disagree with the idea that spirits lacking knowledge is the reason for lack of new magick on earth. Entities involved in existing magickal systems do like to promote those existing systems, as they seem to profit from their use somehow. But that doesn't mean they don't know anything else. They might not be interested in giving humans a new magickal system, for many possible reasons, but that's something else entirely.
Perhaps a relevant follow on question would be, why aren't the God's teaching us new forms of magick?
But could it be said that the work of some mages/magicians of old kind of set parameters for others to follow, and those ended up being sort of guidelines to many?If most people agree on something, regardless if is true or not, it will be considered "the way".
In your experience, do you find that most people are simply followers? I see this all the time. Gurdjieff said that most of mankind is 'asleep'. Colin Wilson says that most people let their 'robot' do their living for them, suggesting basically the same notion as Gurdjieff.
The founders of The Golden Dawn created something new, whether one agrees with their methods or not. It became a phenomenon which attracted leagues of followers. This generated sufficient momentum so that the Golden Dawn is synonymous with magic for many Westerners to this day. You and I know that there is far more to magic than that. Nevertheless, we need not concern ourselves with what the crowds do. We live in an age where knowledge is 'hidden' in plain sight. (That is not to say one should not follow the Golden Dawn's methods, if that is what one determines is the best path for their time and effort.)
On the other hand I'm living for this.To prove that the impossible can be done, just like a kid trying to prove an adult that what seems hard to get is just all in their head and in actuality it's easy.
From my experience, the magicians and the scientists are equally appalled that their fields might be connected to one another.
The magicians (some I've met at any rate) are terrified that magic will no longer be magic if it has a proper explanation, and the scientists (mostly) are terrified that the stuff they've spent years slagging off might actually be part of their field.
It was Max Planck, the man who invented quantum physics, who said (I paraphrase) "Science advances one funeral at a time". i.e. the old guys don't suddenly accept the new ideas, they just die off and the new guys who do accept the new ideas, take over.
I personally think that human conservatism (with a small 'c') means that this is true in almost every field. "Artists are never appreciated in their own lifetime" being a generalised cliche for a reason.
I'm sorry if this comes over as sounding a little bitter, but I've found out what it's like to be caught in the crossfire. The scientists don't believe it (to the point where they won't read it) and the magicians don't want to know (to the point where they won't read it)
I’ll go ahead and apologize because for me I do need to believe in a certain spiritual way for anything I do in Magick to work.
I operate from a Psychological view with some Spiritual aspects behind it and If I somehow learned w/o a doubt that Magick and the Occult in general could be explained away with Science it would destroy my ability to effectively work.
I need to be somewhere in the dark a bit here with some mystery still at play.
But I can understand how that would be frustrating for you.
I’m sure there are people who would benefit from your work. Those who want there to be a Scientific explanation.
If Science is behind everything then I guess new systems of Magick could and would be developed.
Perception is a big part of my own work, as despite we all living in the same universe, at the end of the day the only POV and perception you can really get and rely on, is yours.
So working with your own perception might be one of the keys in working with magic.
One of the key takeaways from my research is that you do magic by attempting to isolate yourself from the Consensus of people long enough to follow a different strand which leads to the desired result. This is why magicians classically work alone, or use long rituals to get "sync'ed up" with any other participants, and why you keep your spells secret until they have completed, otherwise whichever rando you tell about it will get tied up in it, and their contribution is unlikely to be helpful.
If I want to demo magic to people, I show them a Necker Cube "optical illusion" and challenge them to stop it swapping orientations for as long as possible. I always emphasise that this is literally the tiniest piece of magic you can perform. But it is magic.
On the other hand I'm living for this.To prove that the impossible can be done, just like a kid trying to prove an adult that what seems hard to get is just all in their head and in actuality it's easy.
The loftiest of goals if I may say so. But it's good to have some imposing goals in one's life, makes it more exciting.
After all what once was considered magic became "known phenomena" through science.But there are still things that we can't really explain(fully) with science alone. Not our current science anyway.
I have been surprised at how much it is possible to explain with our current science. The main thing to remember is that most proven scientific theories don't give a shit about anything that people normally call "common sense". So if you take the theory at face value and attempt to jettison all your assumptions, they really can lead you somewhere useful!
Not entirely related but marginally so, this reminded of some illusionists' discussions in regard to those that do show to "common people" how some magic tricks works.They say that it "takes away the magic of it" but I honestly get even more fascinated when I discover how they work, because it stops being "because of magic" and starts being "because of hard work and dedication that transformed into skill and ingenuity".
I agree with your view in this.
The amount of papers I've seen in regard to parapsychology(for example) and the reactions of "serious scientists" towards them and the whole field of study...wild.I admit there are many charlatans, fakers and delusional people in it but there are also those that truly seek to understand these phenomena.
It's got to the point now where there is so much cast iron data that even some of the sceptics have finally had to admit that there is data they can no longer find fault with.
The problem, as a science fiction book I read recently said, is that data with no theory is not evidence. And, after over 100 years of data, the parapsycholgists still have no theory which is worth a pitcher of warm spit. Waves hands and points to book again
As for magicians, sometimes it feels a bit like being in the middle of an argument with zealots.They don't want to have to question their deep-set beliefs and paths, they seek the comfort of feeling like they know everything there is to know already.
I’ll go ahead and apologize because for me I do need to believe in a certain spiritual way for anything I do in Magick to work.
I operate from a Psychological view with some Spiritual aspects behind it and If I somehow learned w/o a doubt that Magick and the Occult in general could be explained away with Science it would destroy my ability to effectively work.
I need to be somewhere in the dark a bit here with some mystery still at play.
But I can understand how that would be frustrating for you.
I’m sure there are people who would benefit from your work. Those who want there to be a Scientific explanation.
If Science is behind everything then I guess new systems of Magick could and would be developed.
You absolutely do not need to apologise. Magic requires both Belief and Intent, and they both need to be as strong as possible by whatever means necessary. The source and nature of the Belief are not important; it is their strength and quality that matters.
Also "explained" is not the same as "explained away". After getting really angry with the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, which paralysed our investigation of the nature of reality for at least forty years, I am very aware of the difference between the two, and would never accept anything as weaksauce as "explained away".
For me, the "kick" I get when magic works is just as much of a rush now as it was before I investigated. I like to think that the explanation I've developed has deepened my sense of wonder - you don't just know that there is something 'behind the curtain' - you can take a peek behind there!
Sure, you can use these insights to create new magical systems if you like - because I am a lazy person, I am more interested in shaving off any bits I find long and boring
Words of Power are quite OLD, e.g., within the Egyptian papyri "Headless" rite, more currently adapted and used by many practitioners as the "Bornless" ritual for the Invocation of the Higher Genius, for only one example. Many are the dire warnings: "Change Not the Sonorous Names of Power!". They're not modern. ;^)
Words of Power are quite OLD, e.g., within the Egyptian papyri "Headless" rite, more currently adapted and used by many practitioners as the "Bornless" ritual for the Invocation of the Higher Genius, for only one example. Many are the dire warnings: "Change Not the Sonorous Names of Power!". They're not modern. ;^)
In a related sense Delores Ashcroft-Nowiki has stated her opinion that the real efficacy behind Enochian Words is what she refers to as "Sonics",
that is to say, the very Word/s properly "vibrated" will do the trick! She has the Advantage of being tutored by both W.E. Butler and Gareth (Basil Wilby) Knight, they in turn by Dion (Violet Firth) Fortune, All presumably knew their stuff?
Of course it stands to reason that's the principle behind All Sonorous Names and Words of Power? For those who practice in an Hermetic Qabalistic fashion, you could say something like: "By Names and Images are all Powers Awakened and Reawakened ", which employs both Sonic Vibration and Visualization. By properly Vibrating the Words and Names Vocally, they are manifested upon the physical plane, e.g., "Earthed".
N.B.
If vibrated Internally by the so-called "Great Voice" they manifest firstly upon an Inner Plane.
Words of Power are quite OLD, e.g., within the Egyptian papyri "Headless" rite, more currently adapted and used by many practitioners as the "Bornless" ritual for the Invocation of the Higher Genius, for only one example. Many are the dire warnings: "Change Not the Sonorous Names of Power!". They're not modern. ;^)
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In a related sense Delores Ashcroft-Nowiki has stated her opinion that the real efficacy behind Enochian Words is what she refers to as "Sonics",
that is to say, the very Word/s properly "vibrated" will do the trick! She has the Advantage of being tutored by both W.E. Butler and Gareth (Basil Wilby) Knight, they in turn by Dion (Violet Firth) Fortune, All presumably knew their stuff?
Of course it stands to reason that's the principle behind All Sonorous Names and Words of Power? For those who practice in an Hermetic Qabalistic fashion, you could say something like: "By Names and Images are all Powers Awakened and Reawakened ", which employs both Sonic Vibration and Visualization. By properly Vibrating the Words and Names Vocally, they are manifested upon the physical plane, e.g., "Earthed".
I hope the following won't raise the aire of anyone here. I have a deep respect for all traditions within the magick sphere and for the esotericists practising. I am discussing a personal preference, I don't have much control over it, and this is coming not from a place of superiority or hate...
wizardforums.com
On top of their 'correct' pronounciation (which is a matter of dispute), it's my contention that the way you say them is also important, sonorous, hushed, imploringly, with longish or even shorter pauses in between, etc. but always with total conviction, mentally fully immersed in the ritual. It's an art.
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And returning to the topic of this thread: I feel that more research is needed into the theoretical and practical scope of what words can actually do. All we have is those words of power that are centuries old, so is there a way of creating new ones? How do variables like pitch, for example, affect their efficacy? What is different about the enns of demonolatry - do other princples apply in this belief system? Do Sanskrit mantras work along the same line and achieve similar effects? And so on.
I once facetiously observed that the reason Barry White was such a success with the ladies was that his songs were pitched at the resonant frequency of ladies' naughty bits...
I feel that the pitching of the words of power are connected with the resonant frequencies of different organs/parts of our bodies. New Scientist writes:
I hope the following won't raise the aire of anyone here. I have a deep respect for all traditions within the magick sphere and for the esotericists practising. I am discussing a personal preference, I don't have much control over it, and this is coming not from a place of superiority or hate...
wizardforums.com
On top of their 'correct' pronounciation (which is a matter of dispute), it's my contention that the way you say them is also important, sonorous, hushed, imploringly, with longish or even shorter pauses in between, etc. but always with total conviction, mentally fully immersed in the ritual. It's an art.
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And returning to the topic of this thread: I feel that more research is needed into the theoretical and practical scope of what words can actually do. All we have is those words of power that are centuries old, so is there a way of creating new ones?
How do variables like pitch, for example, affect their efficacy? What is different about the enns of demonolatry - do other princples apply in this belief system? Do Sanskrit mantras work along the same line and achieve similar effects? And so on.
Pitch is crucial to some effects, i.e., the "correct pitch or frequency" will resonate with a wine glass, boots stamping upon a bridge have caused catastrophic collapse, et al. As for the eastern systems I'm far less experienced, as well as less interested to discuss them intelligently.
I would say though that Pitch and Rhythm (Pacing) are equally, if not more important than pronunciation / enunciation.
Some of these words will change the vibratory level (the atmosphere) of a ritual space, as well as cause changes in consciousness, which is a key, in Some definitions of magic/k?
Myself, and several of my fellow practitioners listened to All of Israel Regardie's GD / RR et AC tapes. One of them, the "Invocation of Thoth, with the Bornless Ritual" were Not Impressive! All he did was "Enunciate", no attempt to "Vibrate" or rhythmically even create an atmosphere, very disappointing. We exchanged looks and glances because it appeared he was talking to Himself, in a conversational tone! All of us knew we had
more of the keys than were imparted by the tape!
One can practice the "Bornless" ritual a hundred times (because it's Hard Work) and barely notice the changes that are occurring within the self and ritual space. upon persevering though it finally clicks that I'm beginning to "Enflame Myself" with this invocation. Yes, it is an Art, a Magical Art!
I once facetiously observed that the reason Barry White was such a success with the ladies was that his songs were pitched at the resonant frequency of ladies' naughty bits...
I feel that the pitching of the words of power are connected with the resonant frequencies of different organs/parts of our bodies. New Scientist writes:
