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What is the relationship between Humans and Spirits?

Nana

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This forum is clearly geared towards magic usage and that's admirable, but every magician and priest find themselves crossing paths with the ephemeral world. It has many names and many ideas on how one should relate to it and why.
For myself I chose Vodou because it deals with the how's and why's with a historical lens on both sides of the Veil and sets up the context for current and future interactions; innovation supported by precedence.
What do you believe the relationship between humanity and the spirits are?
What philosophical or moral compass guide your behaviors?
And how did your philosophical/moral framework measure against the reality of the spiritual world?
What, if any, innovations did your interactions with the spirit world inspire?
 

Mider2009

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in Kabbalah Gods Angels, are above us but we have the potential to become like them...not God but his angels. So IMO the spirits are here to to guide and test us.

and demons, etc are just other creations...they are just higher on the food chain
 

Nana

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in Kabbalah Gods Angels, are above us but we have the potential to become like them...not God but his angels. So IMO the spirits are here to to guide and test us.

and demons, etc are just other creations...they are just higher on the food chain
So the relationship, specifically with angels, in your opinion, is either instructive or adversarial; whereas demons are just skinless apex predators who's favorite delicacy is angel eggs. Is this, clumsy but accurate?
I'm flippant not to be disrespectful but to dumb it down to my maturity level.
 

Mider2009

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So the relationship, specifically with angels, in your opinion, is either instructive or adversarial; whereas demons are just skinless apex predators who's favorite delicacy is angel eggs. Is this, clumsy but accurate?
I'm flippant not to be disrespectful but to dumb it down to my maturity level.
No, demons feed off us, or our energy. And some spirits supposedly can become solid and then incorporeal.
but not all demons are evil
 

Frater Dag

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It has been my experience that every human being has their own spiritual ecosystem similar in some ways to the microbiome. There is symbiotic relationship between people and spirits. Most people are completely unaware of this relationship, just like most people are unaware that they have a symbiotic relationship with the 3 lbs. of bacteria that they have in their guts.

Morally speaking, I try my best to do no harm (or at least as little as I can). I don't curse people (I could) or curse spirits. I did once ask the spirits for justice before that did lead to the individual being severely beaten and hospitalized. Had I known that this would happen, I'm not sure I would have asked.
 

SkullTraill

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It has been my experience that every human being has their own spiritual ecosystem similar in some ways to the microbiome. There is symbiotic relationship between people and spirits. Most people are completely unaware of this relationship, just like most people are unaware that they have a symbiotic relationship with the 3 lbs. of bacteria that they have in their guts.

Morally speaking, I try my best to do no harm (or at least as little as I can). I don't curse people (I could) or curse spirits. I did once ask the spirits for justice before that did lead to the individual being severely beaten and hospitalized. Had I known that this would happen, I'm not sure I would have asked.
Well said.
 

Mider2009

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It has been my experience that every human being has their own spiritual ecosystem similar in some ways to the microbiome. There is symbiotic relationship between people and spirits. Most people are completely unaware of this relationship, just like most people are unaware that they have a symbiotic relationship with the 3 lbs. of bacteria that they have in their guts.

Morally speaking, I try my best to do no harm (or at least as little as I can). I don't curse people (I could) or curse spirits. I did once ask the spirits for justice before that did lead to the individual being severely beaten and hospitalized. Had I known that this would happen, I'm not sure I would have asked.
Yes, ancestors, guardian angels, whatever you wanna call it
 

Kronus

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@Mider2009
All demons are malicious by default. Although demons will help the magician greatly, there is always some harmful or adverse aspect in calling them. This is, of course, a baneful power whose force need not necessarily be directed towards the magician.
The full potency of demonic influence is revealed when they are assigned a particularly sadistic task. With demons, destruction of some sort is guaranteed.

when working with them, the magician must avoid the follies and assumptions that would bring this destruction upon himself rather than it being directed at some outside target.
A glance through the description of demons and their abilities shows that they are not all harmful by intent, nevertheless, they are still harmful by nature.
 

Frater Dag

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All demons are malicious by default. Although demons will help the magician greatly, there is always some harmful or adverse aspect in calling them. This is, of course, a baneful power whose force need not necessarily be directed towards the magician.
The full potency of demonic influence is revealed when they are assigned a particularly sadistic task. With demons, destruction of some sort is guaranteed.
I have been working with Gemory, Foras, and Bune for 5 months now. I speak with them and pay them every week. This has not been my experience so far, but I suspect that a person's experiences are connected with the person's personal spiritual practice.
 

Kronus

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I have been working with Gemory, Foras, and Bune for 5 months now. I speak with them and pay them every week. This has not been my experience so far, but I suspect that a person's experiences are connected with the person's personal spiritual practice.
Thank you for telling your opinion on the subject.
I will quote my own post “ This is, of course, a baneful power whose force need not necessarily be directed towards the magician. “

You might experience it and you might not. I think it has a lot to do with the way you interact with the demon. If you start summoning the demon right away and start demanding things, you will feel the wrath. But if you approach it with respect, you’ll probably be fine. You mention that you bring offerings every week, which is a massive sign of respect and probably a reason why the demon has not been malicious towards you. But yes, it is in a demons nature to be malicious and harmful. - but at the same time, they can probably choose on who and when to be malicious and harmful. They are wise old beings, not crazy psychos.
I noticed that you also mentioned you asked a being for justice and the person ended up being beaten up and hospitalized. Was this entity a demon?
 

Frater Dag

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I noticed that you also mentioned you asked a being for justice and the person ended up being beaten up and hospitalized. Was this entity a demon?
The spirits that I asked for justice were not demonic. This person came with a group of people to my home in the middle of night, woke us up, and harassed my family. They were using alcohol and other drugs. I worried that they would come back and do it again.

I treat the spirits of the Lesser Key like hot spirits. I treat them with respect and I always keep my word. I suspect that I have a reputation among the spirits for always honoring my word.
 

Nana

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I suggest that humans are not the center of Existence. Perhaps the entities humans call demons have natural functions that generally do not relate to humans
An astute observation. There are spirits whose innate nature is caustic to humans; spirits of vacuums, cognitive or pathetic dissolution, unrestrained growth or magnitude, and so much more.
Ultimately, humanity is a race of balance, UNIMAGINABLE COSMIC POWER!!!!!! ittiy bity little living space. Spirits on the other hand are largely single issue entities.
Spirits that help us move within our limits or to broaden those limits so that we may grow larger are healthy. Spirits that disregard or cannot operate within our human limits will eventually harm us regardless of intent. I suspect demons are of this category and I know for certain there are spirits that are. These are the spirits that traffic most often with the aze or malefici.
 

Misty Mystic

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What do you believe the relationship between humanity and the spirits are?
Humanity mostly consists of normals. Direct relationships with spirits are not for them. Normals are dealing with spiritual world with the help of mediators - egregores, occult practitioners, priests, shamans, witches etc

What philosophical or moral compass guide your behaviors?
The respect to the skills and power, including the potential one

And how did your philosophical/moral framework measure against the reality of the spiritual world?
I don't think I need any meassures against it. We're not fighting. We're neighbours.
What, if any, innovations did your interactions with the spirit world inspire?
I've made lil secret investigation on subj "Why I can hear and see more than other kids and even adults"?
 

Jarhyn

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Personally, I take a rather complicated position on this: there are three different families of "spirit".

There are first, Spirits of Metaphysical Truth.

These are things like "the source of all" or the Wanton Spirits of Self.

They are large and in some ways incomprehensible but moreover would exist in any universe describable by the axioms of math bound around any amount of randomness (to include 'no randomness').

Which is a fancy way of saying "spirits that exist everywhere and nowhere, and are eternal and unchanging without narrative impact"

Then there are "outsiders": those spirits which may or may not exist in whatever (currently) incomprehensible source of randomness comes in at the boundaries of our observable universe.

These might include the "lower" creators of such things as our particular material reality. I haven't met any such "lower" creators, though, nor anything that clearly swims in that sea as opposed to...

The third family of spirits, "narrative spirits", of which there are two properties that they interact between: "static encodings" and "live madness". All such entities are in flux between, and not ever entirely just "a static encoding" or "a live madness".

Static encodings are things like sound waves, or words on a page in a world where an interpreter for this information can encode and use it. A computer program written on a field of memory is a static encoding right until the processor says "jump to the first instruction it encodes and execute it!" At which point it becomes "live madness".

Sometimes the static encoding is a piece of DNA. Sometimes the static encoding is a book! Sometimes the static encoding is both, in the way that a program may be statically encoded as an encrypted field plus a key, hidden until the parts come together.

In this way, WE as wizards are narrative entities at the very least and quite possibly "outsiders" in some way too, and if we complete The Great Work, we become one with the Spirits of Existential Truth as well.

To be fair many narrative entities come into existence as absurdities: sources from chaos (and ultimately "outsider" randomness), but more the result of a many sided die roll rather than because "it was inevitable".
 

Mider2009

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@Mider2009
All demons are malicious by default. Although demons will help the magician greatly, there is always some harmful or adverse aspect in calling them. This is, of course, a baneful power whose force need not necessarily be directed towards the magician.
The full potency of demonic influence is revealed when they are assigned a particularly sadistic task. With demons, destruction of some sort is guaranteed.

when working with them, the magician must avoid the follies and assumptions that would bring this destruction upon himself rather than it being directed at some outside target.
A glance through the description of demons and their abilities shows that they are not all harmful by intent, nevertheless, they are still harmful by nature.
No...they’re not, they’re just a different species, most don’t 8nteract with us.
 

Mider2009

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What do you believe the relationship between humanity and the spirits are?

God is trying to get us to evolve, become as the angelic beings who were like us...why? Idk

What philosophical or moral compass guide your behaviors? I was raised Christian then found Judaism and Kabbalah though I’m not jewish

And how did your philosophical/moral framework measure against the reality of the spiritual world? Very well...I have rarely had issues because I do not try n deal with things I’m not ready to handle. It’s best to remain holy and not seek destructive paths

What, if any, innovations did your interactions with the spirit world inspire?

I understood the connection between the mystical masters and the occult which helped me make sense of things
 

Roma

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humanity is a race of balance, UNIMAGINABLE COSMIC POWER!!!!!! ittiy bity little living space. Spirits on the other hand are largely single issue entities.
If so, the human, having learned inner balance and wisdom, extends that influence into the rest of Existence, guiding the progress of other kingdoms with their myriad species.

What then for humans that want to change the world to suit their personality desires?
 
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