Why does the Goetic spirit not manifest itself physically?

[David Wilson-Steer]

When I try to evoke a spirit of the Goetia he manifests himself mentally, I ask for signs and they are answered, but why when I order him to manifest physically he doesn't obey my order?

The physical appearance of a spirit is not what the spirit looks like. This might be a bit hard to get your head around, I know it was for me, but the Sigil (Seal) is the actual spirit and the appearance of the spirit is only a symbol of it. Tricky huh? That's why you ask the spirit to identify itself which it does by showing its sigil (showing itself actually). Which is why no other spirit can show you some other spirit's sigil. It's a bit like me pretending I'm you and someone asks to see your driver's license to prove it.

Having said that, there is a Tibetan method of bringing the spirit to physical manifestation but it involves creating a sand mandala and then meditating beside it for a very long time - months maybe even years.

The other thing to consider is that EVERYTHING is an Illusion. Maybe meditate on that.

 

[Frater Kael]

Ce que Frater a dit était : « C'est étrange, quand je vous ai lu, j'ai eu presque peur. Je n'ai jamais compris que pour parler avec un esprit, il fallait utiliser un appareil de divination. Quand j'invoque un esprit, il apparaît physiquement. Croyez-le ou non, cela a toujours été le cas. C'est pourquoi lorsque je lis un livre sur la divination ou le channelling pour transmettre un soi-disant message d'un esprit, cela me dérange. »

Je dois tout cela à Mme Beauté, ma prof de français de première année. Elle m'a dit : « Utilise le traducteur automatique, toi, horrible crétin ! Et ne t'approche pas de moi. » En fait, j'ai utilisé Bing Translate.

Sérieusement, quand tu dis « physiquement », tu veux dire comme une forme visible ou comme une entité solide ? Quel genre d'invocation utilises-tu ?

When I say physical, I mean physical. The entity can take on any physical form, it's the evocator (me) who will ask it to take on a human form. You can't do this kind of thing in a closed space, the manifestation won't be the same. These aren't things you're going to find in books. I don't ask people to believe or not to believe. People who know about this know exactly what I'm talking about. There are so many crazy things in this world.

 

[Xenophon]

When I say physical, I mean physical. The entity can take on any physical form, it's the evocator (me) who will ask it to take on a human form. You can't do this kind of thing in a closed space, the manifestation won't be the same. These aren't things you're going to find in books. I don't ask people to believe or not to believe. People who know about this know exactly what I'm talking about. There are so many crazy things in this world.

Interesting point there. Steve Savedow writes a lot of the difficulties he had getting visible manifestations. I notice his insistence on indoor space. He even deplores the fact he did not have a secluded house set apart. Likewise I recall Kevin Grant having had some troubles with spirits indoors. Recall as well Anton Long's insistence that evocations be conducted out doors in secluded country.

 

[Xag9]

Interesting point there. Steve Savedow writes a lot of the difficulties he had getting visible manifestations. I notice his insistence on indoor space. He even deplores the fact he did not have a secluded house set apart. Likewise I recall Kevin Grant having had some troubles with spirits indoors. Recall as well Anton Long's insistence that evocations be conducted out doors in secluded country.

Yes environment matters and how you specifically feel inside that environment matters. The Evocator must feel a sense of security and a "no care in the world" feeling, overall you must feel "closed" or "locked in" I personally aslo had a hard time doing magical things outside my temple. This problem doesn't hold much weight of significance in my experience and it's just a reflection of one's personality - I am an introvert for example and I do have a hard time mixing the crowd even energetically.

Thus being said, its not impossible to physically manifest or scry a spirit to existence because my experience proved me that you can evoke a demon in a church. I had evoked my demonic familiar in physical manifestation in an orthodox church during the Easter Liturgy, i could literally see the face of the spirit in my physical vision for a few seconds. it was harder than usual and i was almost like fighting to keep my attention and energy pointed towards a place that i had no disturbance (Keeping a silent mind and personal energy that was not interfering with anything or anyone) the inner battle was that of constant refocus and re adjusting.

 

[Accipeveldare]

When I try to evoke a spirit of the Goetia he manifests himself mentally, I ask for signs and they are answered, but why when I order him to manifest physically he doesn't obey my order?

It doesn't obey your order mostly because daemons don't usually appear physically, however you are also treating them like tools and they feel very disrespected by this fact. You see, the ars goetia was written by a man who used the power of YHWH to control daemons and make them abide his will, however, the fact is that they are likely on listening to you due to their own interests and not yours. They don't actually have to abide your word and won't if they choose not to.

Post automatically merged: Oct 8, 2024

My advice, treat daemons with respect and perhaps they will treat you with it too and you'll get more out of it in the process. Hiding behind a salt circle and using the power of YHWH will only do so much. Anger them too if you get on their bad side

Post automatically merged: Oct 8, 2024

And from my experience, nobody ever comes out the same when they anger a daemon

 

[David Wilson-Steer]

When they do manifest physically they don't look like they do in the Goetia. It's like when you ask for something, it usually doesn't manifest the way you might be expecting. When I do see spirits they often appear physically as children. I also understand that they see me as a child of similar age too. When you achieve the knowledge & conversation of your HGA you see them physically quite often. But then, I've programmed myself to perceive them. I didn't expect to see them the way they do though. An interesting example is Dee & Kelly's scrying where the first spirit Kelly sees is Madimi who appears as a young girl and then, over eight years she grows up and in the last description of her she's a young woman.

 

[ㅤtornribbon1402ㅤ]

because us being in a realm that they didn't come from , the physical one ... sets some limitations for them .

these two realms ...

our one , the physical one ...

and their one , the spiritual one ...

both have their own different rules and ways of working . and these rules and ways of working ... are exactly what each one of these realms is built on , so they are what can't ever be changed . and they are also what makes it so hard for spirits to interact with the ones who are from the one they didn't come from .

they are what ... sets the limits .

and that is also for how can they manifest themselves .

 

[julio]

If one doesn’t want to believe claims by contemporary magicians regarding the physical manifestation of spirits, that’s fine. But consider this: even leaving out the word of thinkers such as Psellus and Christian thinkers, that’s exactly what countless Solomonic manuscripts propose, that spirits, or at least the spirits from their catalogues, are “made of air”, with suble yet physical bodies.

Likewise, it’s also what’s proposed in even earlier material than Solomonic manuscripts come into existence.

Likewise, the jinn are said to be made of smokeless fire. That’s a literal description of what one sees when they become manifest.

Likewise, the manifestation of eshú in certain lines of Quimbanda, even if invisible, can be physically felt by those who are present.

Etc, etc.

 

[MorganBlack]

Neat. Now let's flip it around: Why do some magicians not get physical manifestations?

Let me say the discussion as to whether physical manifestation is or is not required is not interesting. Plenty of people work with the spirits in a Hoodoo / Conjure style that is very effective. The Demonolatry transvocation style, something I do not use, I hear that is also effective

I am on this site mostly becasue I'd like to find better ways to help people get physical manifestations. If only becasue it opens a universe that is pure adventure, that I know people will find exhilarating.

My hougan called me a "materializing medium" which confused me at first. I get materializations all the time, even in my regular prayer practice. Like fragrant odors of citrus and roses my girlfriend can also experience. I have my theories, but I have no solid idea why.

I never trained for this, and so I have no way to articulate to others what exactly I am doing. I did so much I have no idea what made it all click. After tinkering with eveything I just did the grims and I think, somewhere in the back of my head, I just sort of expect them to show up. Somehow I can ignore the voices in our very Anglo-Saxon monoculture that says spirts don't exist.

That's it. Or at least my best guess for now. In the olden days that was called "faith". Chaos magic called it belief. but it's something far more organic and uses one's whole self, your body, how you hold yourself and move, your voice. Not just surface level left-brain notions or thinking. At least that's the gist my current explorations.

 

[FireBorn]

My first question regarding the manifestation of a demon is what if it did manifest physically? Okay, now what? Would you listen more? Would it make it better in some way? Intention matters. Demons clock your shit, your fears, your true intentions.

I have had success inside, outside the house. Daytime as well as night time. So honestly I think its different for each practitioner.

Also, I truly believe demons manifest in such a way so as not to shatter one's psyche. Obviously they dial themselves back and don't manifest in full power, otherwise we would just melt. This to me, explains why there is so much variance in the way each practitioner experiences the same demons. Is this truth? No clue, but it does explain a lot. And honestly, it doesnt matter to me.personally. I am just grateful for the experiences and learn the lessons presented rather than trying to deconstruct the damn mechanics of it. Thats just me though.

 

[MorganBlack]

I don't think it's pure mechanics. There are plenty of magicians who have done the grims by the book and gotten nothing but dead air. I also don't think it's purely psychological. Its like the space between those.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

I have had manifestations, but never on the moment that I, deep in my heart, wanted them the most. It is a very human desire to want to see some prove, some manifestation to get the feel that it is reality. We crave that and we have to unlearn that craving to a certain level if we want to perform magic successfully because it narrows our mind thus seeing less possibilities. Magic is about opening our mind, not about narrowing our mind.

Humans tend to think in a very physical way, because that is our reality. Spirits have another reality than ours, their realm is not physical AND they don't like our human desire to watch out for evidence. You need to get rid of that desire. It is that desire that is between you and the spirit, it is that desire that is an obstacle for a good communication between you and the spirit. If you are seeking their attention, just belief without seeking prove, be careful what you wish for and be respectful.

And bear in mind: not every spirit really wants communication or work with a human being. They have their own path and their own agenda. They show us what they want and they typically use the illusions that are already in our mind, even if you approach them with proper ritual, respect and proper intentions. Using the illusions of our mind is a way to manifestate in way that takes them less energy. It is the way of the less resistance. As a magician you have to work on those illusions.

 

[FireBorn]

I don't think it's pure mechanics. There are plenty of magicians who have done the grims by the book and gotten nothing but dead air. I also don't think it's purely psychological. Its like the space between those.

I agree it isn't pure mechanics, or there would be a factual recipe and the magick wouldnt be magick.

I mentioned the psyche because if your psyche cannot handle the power of a demonic presence, then the mind will block it for its own survival in most cases. Are there outlier stories? Yes, but those do not make the rule obviously.

Im glad it isn't about mechanics. Keeps the wonder and the awe in place. Also gives the book folks something to love for and pontificate about.

I do believe some people can handle more than others, so their experiences are deeper and more visceral (to them). Im sure there are ppl who don't require a physical manifestation for the experience to be tectonic to them.

Also, there are the somatic responses you don't see mentioned a lot. What the physical affects are the the practitioner. If someone tells me they experienced a full manifestation and felt nothing, I pass it off immediately as fantasy. You just cannot have an experience like that without feeling it throughout your entire body. A power like that leaves an impression mentally, spiritually as well as the physical feeling of it.

 

[MorganBlack]

Thank you for writing that AlfrunGrima. That help me examine my own cosmo-conception.

Agreed to a certain level, FireBorn. Thank you too!

But recently , in the past decade, I feel it's all gone a bit too far over into mental evocation. How can anyone really take seriously - and I mean in your gut level seriously when shit is on the line- (and this is not levied against anyone specifically ) when all a modern magician manifestations only happen in their head or when tripping balls? Yes, would also say, it is one thing to be an Ayahuasciero meeting the Green Lady. Their default culture allows it. We have some other materialist goblins to take on . Or I did, at one time.

I also will admit my take is what was needed in the 1990's to break with the monoculture . At a high meta-level I map my reality in a very NeoPlatoic way. In ancient thinking the forces that neopagans call "the gods", are actually much closer to The One and can't do much here in this world very directly. They have to be "brought down" into daimonic manifestations, using our bodies in ritual action and materia so to have their claws in the guts of reality, as it were. But since since leanring to perform"miracles " on my own using Goddardian New Thought I am rethinking that a bit. But I also do not have a pet GUT of magic I need to explain to folks with.

 

[FireBorn]

I don't think it's pure mechanics. There are plenty of magicians who have done the grims by the book and gotten nothing but dead air. I also don't think it's purely psychological. Its like the space between those.

I agree it isn't pure mechanics, or there would be a factual recipe and the magick wouldnt be magick.

I mentioned the psyche because if your psyche cannot handle the power of a demonic presence, then the mind will block it for its own survival in most cases. Are there outlier stories? Yes, but those do not make the rule obviously.

Im glad it isn't about mechanics. Keeps the wonder and the awe in place. Also gives the book folks something to love for and pontificate about.

I do believe some people can handle more than others, so their experiences are deeper and more visceral (to them). Im sure there are ppl who don't require a physical manifestation for the experience to be tectonic to them.

Also, there are the somatic responses you don't see mentioned a lot. What the physical affects are the the practitioner. If someone tells me they experienced a full manifestation and felt nothing, I pass it off immediately as fantasy. You just cannot have an experience like that without feeling it throughout your entire body. A power like that leaves an impression mentally, spiritually as well as the physical.

Last thing and I don't want to veer too far off the topic, but its worth mentioning. The energy required for a manifestation is critical. How many ppl are drained energetically from daily life before they even enter the circle? Jobs they hate, traffic, porn, doom scrolling social media, then shit food for dinner. Blowing whatever energy they had left on the lbrp, they wonder why nothing happens in the actual ritual. It's a real thing and the writers of the grimoires didn't have to live in a world of weaponized dopamine. I would say it is a much bigger deal than most are aware of regarding flat rituals.

 

[MorganBlack]

How many ppl are drained energetically from daily life

Nicely said.

Like aliens, I don't "do" energy even while my a ritual actions can manifest as seeming dramatic energies. I think there is a limit to thinking magic works like a D-Cell battery, using "the elements" or 19th century luminous ether.

Serge Kahili King, in his maybe made-up Hawaiian shamanism, said something back in the 1980s that has stuck with me since. Rewording here, becasue he never wrote about spirits then , but he said the energy from candles, dance, is not for the spirits, it is for our the level of self , whcih I would call the Nephesh, and which he called the Unihipili, and is our unconscious, inner, emotional, intuitive self. It uses the energy of ritual to loosen itself, change, and let the spirits come through.

Maybe in the end people just need to relax more? But yeah, getting super stressed over ritual mechanics, overcoming "social conditioning" , dong everything Crowley said, or LaVey, or MK-Ultra said yuu havbe to do, and becoming a super -duper metahuman adept, or uber witch only works to stresses people out and make it all that much much harder.