Wicca is bs?

[Khoren_]

I personally have known people who were weak-minded enough to invest their efforts into the whole "Manifesting Success Concepts" and eventually lose everything, only to take their own lives because of this garbage.

Is that "The Secret" where you just "attract" your goals and don't do anything to prepare for them? I hated that book. My parents almost bought into it

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Is that "The Secret" where you just "attract" your goals and don't do anything to prepare for them? I hated that book. My parents almost bought into it

I bought a copy for research purposes, and my fears were confirmed.

 

[Khoren_]

I bought a copy for research purposes, and my fears were confirmed.

Its like if Rhonda read half of Liber Null and went "Oh so I can just pretend I'm getting shit and it'll happen??"

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Its like if Rhonda read half of Liber Null and went "Oh so I can just pretend I'm getting shit and it'll happen??"

Magical thinking, without the magical training. It's one of my favourite examples (along with business self-help books) for illustrating why there needs to be theory behind practice.

 

[Xenophon]

Mine is "and of course the gypsies came from Atlantis"

Its like if Rhonda read half of Liber Null and went "Oh so I can just pretend I'm getting shit and it'll happen??"

Rhonda is right! If she's pretending she's getting stuff, then it'll happen: she'll really be pretending she's getting stuff!

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Rhonda is right! If she's pretending she's getting stuff, then it'll happen: she'll really be pretending she's getting stuff!

This is absolutely the best answer

 

[Taudefindi]

Is that "The Secret" where you just "attract" your goals and don't do anything to prepare for them? I hated that book. My parents almost bought into it

And if you don't get what you want "it's because you didn't really want it/wanted it enough".Unfortunately my mother fell for this but I still don't give up on the task of trying to open her eyes.

The problem of that book(and it's message) is that it created an entire cult out of it that has screwed the lives of so many, and many more still "swear by it".
Though I don't know if this(this book) can really be linked to Wicca.I think this is it's own issue.

business self-help books

Self-help books in general are questionable, bussiness ones can be outright scams in it's majority.That is a genre that shouldn't really have existed.

she'll really be pretending she's getting stuff!

I think she mistook the phrase "fake it until you make it".

I believe the idea of charging rocks with the full moon and making little spell jars is childish and silly.

Personally I don't have much issue with it.

To each their own and spell jars sometimes do appeal to the artist in me(when people go through the effort of making artistic jars), but I can see how all of it can come off as "play pretend" to people more used to other types of magic(specially the older types and the ones that seem to be more demanding).

someone think they get stuff by being positive instead of working hard

Yes, people can be positive as long as they also work on it too.I agree what if positive thinking alone was enough to give people what they want, no one would really be depressed or stressed, as they would "know" that they should always be positive to get what they want.
I imagine that would be very tiring though.

Wicca gets a bad rap because of witchtok

Mostly because of this one.The "crystal folks" had been at it since the hippies if Im' not mistaken.
But TikTok made Wicca(and Witchcraft) become very popular on social medias.

Wicca is a joke simply because it's founder just created it to try to make a sex cult.

I'm of the mind that Wicca is treated as a joke because the media in general(but mostly movies and TV series) always portray it in the same stereotypical way, rather than being a bit more serious.How many shows don't portray it(generally) as a "casual hobby for white girls curious about the supernatural"?Or as "the faux magic side of the nature-lover vegan protester"?

In a way it is akin to those séances held in Victorian age, bored (mostly white)people that wanted to feel excitement by "dealing with the supernatural", and some of those that participated would think of themselves as experts of spiritual matters after participating in many of such events.
Now, I'm not saying that all séances were fake.Certainly some were real, just like with Wicca where the are people that do take it seriously and use it as their means to do actual spiritual work rather than mere "bringing good vibes".
But when people think of séance they think of the staged ones, made to scare people and think that others were actual mediums or had powers over spirits.Wicca is simliar in this way, social medias ruined it's image and fictional works don't help it either because they all go for the same stereotypes that have since made it look like something "fake" or "childish" in comparison to the "more serious and harsh discipline of high magic" and etc.

 

[Shade]

I can see the merits of pretty much any practice as long as it’s done with discipline and a calm mind. I personally don’t know if the new age part of Wicca or crystals work, I’m sure there has been damage done to the original Wiccan belief system, however some people who are sick get healed with placebos. So whatever works for them. If someone wants to use crystals then by all means do so, if you don’t want to and think they are bs. Just don’t worry about incorporating them into your practice.

 

[Xenophon]

And if you don't get what you want "it's because you didn't really want it/wanted it enough".Unfortunately my mother fell for this but I still don't give up on the task of trying to open her eyes.

The problem of that book(and it's message) is that it created an entire cult out of it that has screwed the lives of so many, and many more still "swear by it".
Though I don't know if this(this book) can really be linked to Wicca.I think this is it's own issue.


Self-help books in general are questionable, bussiness ones can be outright scams in it's majority.That is a genre that shouldn't really have existed.


I think she mistook the phrase "fake it until you make it".

Personally I don't have much issue with it.

To each their own and spell jars sometimes do appeal to the artist in me(when people go through the effort of making artistic jars), but I can see how all of it can come off as "play pretend" to people more used to other types of magic(specially the older types and the ones that seem to be more demanding).


Yes, people can be positive as long as they also work on it too.I agree what if positive thinking alone was enough to give people what they want, no one would really be depressed or stressed, as they would "know" that they should always be positive to get what they want.
I imagine that would be very tiring though.


Mostly because of this one.The "crystal folks" had been at it since the hippies if Im' not mistaken.
But TikTok made Wicca(and Witchcraft) become very popular on social medias.


I'm of the mind that Wicca is treated as a joke because the media in general(but mostly movies and TV series) always portray it in the same stereotypical way, rather than being a bit more serious.How many shows don't portray it(generally) as a "casual hobby for white girls curious about the supernatural"?Or as "the faux magic side of the nature-lover vegan protester"?

In a way it is akin to those séances held in Victorian age, bored (mostly white)people that wanted to feel excitement by "dealing with the supernatural", and some of those that participated would think of themselves as experts of spiritual matters after participating in many of such events.
Now, I'm not saying that all séances were fake.Certainly some were real, just like with Wicca where the are people that do take it seriously and use it as their means to do actual spiritual work rather than mere "bringing good vibes".
But when people think of séance they think of the staged ones, made to scare people and think that others were actual mediums or had powers over spirits.Wicca is simliar in this way, social medias ruined it's image and fictional works don't help it either because they all go for the same stereotypes that have since made it look like something "fake" or "childish" in comparison to the "more serious and harsh discipline of high magic" and etc.

Fine answer! For a great long while I was convinced tarot was magickally un-respectable. Why? All those old movies with dithering menopausal English women gushing and vaporing over some faking fakir's deck. Say, Constance Collier c. 1950. A meme is a terrible thing to host. By a similar token, Wicca gets lampooned more than it gets understood, I fear.

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

Personally, I believe the idea of charging rocks with the full moon and making little spell jars is childish and silly. However, I don't know too much about the subject so I'll let everyone decide for themselves

If you think that is Wicca you Should sit down with someone from a traditional lineaged Wiccan background. You find a coven worth its salt and you'll find individuals trained and competent in solomonic techniques, devotional practices, invocation of godform, ritual construction and practical application.

Post automatically merged: Aug 3, 2024

Wicca gets a bad rap because of witchtok and instagram crystal girlies.

Just 10 years ago it was one of the most popular, serious, and well-respected branches of magick.

True, and if not ten years ago, certainly twenty years ago. Wicca may have its issues, especially with the WoY and it's faulty take on history.. but before edgy folkloric witchcraft, demonalators and LHP cringe came along, Wicca was where it was at.

You had five camps:

Golden Dawners
OTO & Thelema
Grimoire work
Wicca
Chaos magic.

Grimoire work was great for those wanting a solo approach and the discipline to force themselves to do the work, experiment and Adept. -and people did despite often being contrary to a Christian worldview. Strange.

Golden Dawn revivals provides a solid system and initiatory experience for those living near a temple. Even for those who didn't, availability to the materials left them with a rather complete system and was enticing to those who didn't want to settle in one grimoire or be bothered with a more rigid discipline. Down side is that many psychological model practitioners flocked to this camp and thus every revival I know focuses strictly on the psych model.

Thelema offered both solo and group options with a lot material. However it's religious nature is right for everyone and may conflict with ones values. At the same time the OTO always seems to be undergoing some scandal and it's overtly liberal politics can be a bit much at times.

Chaos magic provided a veritable grab-bag of techniques however that community often lacks cohesion and tends to suffer from substance abuse. There's also rarely a degree system which makes it difficult to get people on the same change for group work or to operate from a shared experience.

And then there is Wicca, which got a lot of things right. Firstly, and this is often overlooked, trad Wicca is orthopraxic where Cunningham-esque Wicca sold that to an audience steeped in orthodoxic religion. Being orthopraxic, it allows not only for spirit-model and psyche-model practitioners to work together but to do so effectively. Employing both solomonic techniques and the working with spirits out in nature, it combined trued and tested technique with hands-on real-world experience on the fringe of everyday life. There's something to be said for solomonic practices out in the woods with spirits abound. Wicca also provided a learning structure and curriculum with its degree system. It avoided schisms and provided diversity of tight-knit practicing groups with its system of giving off. If someone was exposing a tyrannical regime, the other 3°s could simply leave and start their own coven or tradition. Wicca, like the GD and Masonry also used frame rites to bring in disciplined alignment to starting conditions but unlike the former groups, also called for ecstatic ritual between the frame. I got to see perhaps the best of this in a Wiccan-Regency hybrid trad...and to this day it's still some of the best group ritual I've ever seen.

Here in 2024, Wicca isn't trendy, seen as fluffy and it's easy to hate on it... but like many if the old and now deduct occult and neopagan forums, I miss what we had back then.

 

[Mars]

Wicca is for white americans having issues with paganism that revolves around being native to your soil and country.

It's just new age ism, actually its what started new ageism. It's like theosophy but somehow even more castrated and circumcised.

 

[Yazata]

Wicca is for white americans having issues with paganism that revolves around being native to your soil and country.

It's just new age ism, actually its what started new ageism. It's like theosophy but somehow even more castrated and circumcised.

Not really. Wicca is about the Celtic Gods and Goddess originally. It has become an amalgamation of dreamcatchers and Bastet statues, I agree, but when you read Five Sabbaths for Witches by the Farrar's for example it's all about the original Gods of (English) western Europe.

 

[Mars]

Not really. Wicca is about the Celtic Gods and Goddess originally. It has become an amalgamation of dreamcatchers and Bastet statues, I agree, but when you read Five Sabbaths for Witches by the Farrar's for example it's all about the original Gods of (English) western Europe.

Then why not go straight to the source? Druidism and various indo british pagan organisations are quite big and organised. They even got their claim on stonehenge rectified. No need to create a watered down offshoot. Unless of course to sell bogus and dreams.

 

[Yazata]

sell

Of course this

 

[Shade]

Wicca gets a bad rap because of witchtok and instagram crystal girlies.

Just 10 years ago it was one of the most popular, serious, and well-respected branches of magick.

Don’t forget the movie “The Craft” that came out around said time period, it made many edgy goth girls claim to be witches but I’m sure most just watched the movie and thought.. “I got this”

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

Then why not go straight to the source? Druidism and various indo british pagan organisations are quite big and organised. They even got their claim on stonehenge rectified. No need to create a watered down offshoot. Unless of course to sell bogus and dreams.

Well for one, we dont know squat about the druids. 99% of modern-day Druidism is just re-packaged and re-themed neo-paganism anyway, which it itself was a movement largely sparked from Wicca....so, why not just go back to the source instead of messing with watered down neo-druidry?

-and let's be perfectly fair, if we were left to the source materials at the time we'd probably end up with a system with just as many historical and cultural issues as Wicca. It very much was a product of its time.

Gardner gets a lot of flak for "making it all up" but though he heavily reformed what was handed to him, he tells you in his Witchcraft Today, that he hadn't a clue were any of it came from. He suspected parts of it came from or were influenced by Crowley, but simply didn't know enough of Crowley's material to prove it. Gardner was initiated into a coven, though it was far from ancient. The coven was a remnant of the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry and it's all pretty clear except for one major mystery: of all the things they could of claimed to be in their reformation, why witches?

In fact, I'd say the worst thing to ever happen to Wicca was being called Wicca, being called witchcraft. I get they were romanticists of pre-Christian religion but the word witch started as a regional word for Christian cunningfolk and does not go back to pre-Christian religion.

Gardner also did a disservice to Strega, which is now equivocated with witchcraft because of him. Let's be honest Gardner was influenced more of Strega than actual European folk traditions. He took Strega, argued Italian "witches" being in Italy would of occasionally stumbled upon grimoires, or that said tomes were just reworked neopagan works.

Aradia isn't British, and he forced her into a bit of a marriage with Cernunnos but I suppose the ethics of that aside, a marriage makes sense if you are blending Strega and Celtic lore. It certainly caught the attention of Lady Circe (not the ancient one) and Lord Sariel who used Wicca as well as [another] certain firm of Luciferian tradition at the time to turn the Stregan fam-trad tradition she claimed into a covened tradition. I mean I get the guy was on the Isle of man but if he had ditched Cernunnos and called his stuff ceremonial Strega or group Strega maybe it would still be taken seriously...maybe, depending on how those practicing signature would of received it.

The second worst thing to happen to Wicca was that bloody-aweful wheel of the year. Yeah I know, there's a strong case to be made for the commercialization of Wicca being the first thing but I'm just not sure that would of happened with the different branding.

So there's plenty to criticize Wicca for, we don't to go out of our way to put people down. Although I don't think the assessment of it being for white people who don't like culturally closed practices is fair. Having a personal matron and patron wasn't originally a thing in Wicca as you practiced the deities of your tradition and you had to be initiated, thus the practice was closed in that way, before even knowing who they were. At the same time if we are of the mindset that these deities have free-will, who they work with is their choice not ours. If you are contacting an entity from another culture without appropriating closed methods to do so and aren't pushing your UPG of the experience upon the culture, religion or group...I don't see the problem. Again, the WoY is a much bigger issue in that regard.

I'll also come right out and say it...a cunningfolk tradition using a modified Wiccan frame rite for group work would be amazing. Have the Goddess be The Sophia and the God the Logos with the Drighten being the father/divine parent...id be all over helping that get started even if I already have my praxis- because I'm sick and tired of seeing people missaprooriate Appalachian practices as witchcraft. Yeah, I said it.

 

[Mars]

Of course this

I don't mean sell as actually selling materials but in distributing problematic beliefs and just wrong assumptions.

Or how was it so easy for wicca to be co opted by the tranny and globohomo agenda?

Yes now you will tell me you are not one of the blue haired crystal Emily's (unfortunately because I do find them hot actually) that is doing hexes against the patriarchy and trump and all that american stuff, yet they follow the same structure as you do.

This thought patterns of wiccan philosophy enabled this recent syncretism. Just as how christianity enables spiritual weakness and defeatism.

Post automatically merged: Aug 3, 2024

Crowley

Of course this tool is affiliated with it. The people that initiated him in sicily already said back then it was a mistake to do so.

I'll also come right out and say it...a cunningfolk tradition using a modified Wiccan frame rite for group work would be amazing. Have the Goddess be The Sophia and the God the Logos with the Drighten being the father/divine parent...id be all over helping that get started even if I already have my praxis- because I'm sick and tired of seeing people missaprooriate Appalachian practices as witchcraft. Yeah, I said it

The veil of ignorance also protects you from the things it shrouds. This is why wicca is bad. I don't say this for you or to argue or whatever but for the other 720 people lurking and reading this thread to not make this mistake.

 

[Khoren_]

I don't mean sell as actually selling materials but in distributing problematic beliefs and just wrong assumptions.

Or how was it so easy for wicca to be co opted by the tranny and globohomo agenda?

Yes now you will tell me you are not one of the blue haired crystal Emily's (unfortunately because I do find them hot actually) that is doing hexes against the patriarchy and trump and all that american stuff, yet they follow the same structure as you do.

This thought patterns of wiccan philosophy enabled this recent syncretism. Just as how christianity enables spiritual weakness and defeatism.

Whew there's a lot to unpack here. You really just said all that.

because I'm sick and tired of seeing people missaprooriate Appalachian practices as witchcraft.

Honestly, a lot of people have this issue of conflating "folk tradition" as "Wicca/witchcraft" simply because it's easier to lump all neo-paganism into the same umbrella when discussing it (to be fair a lot of wiccans do appropriate folk craft and that makes it harder to actually differentiate the crafts). There's also the whole "trifold goddess" group which is basically just Christianity but God's a woman.

 

[Yazata]

blue haired crystal Emily's (unfortunately because I do find them hot actually)

Me too.
Are you saying you find it unfortunate that I'm not one? You're flirting with me

I think Wicca / witchcraft / lhp and all paths that in some way oppose Catholicism are attractive to those who (feel they) are oppressed.

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

I don't mean sell as actually selling materials but in distributing problematic beliefs and just wrong assumptions.

Or how was it so easy for wicca to be co opted by the tranny and globohomo agenda?

Yes now you will tell me you are not one of the blue haired crystal Emily's (unfortunately because I do find them hot actually) that is doing hexes against the patriarchy and trump and all that american stuff, yet they follow the same structure as you do.

This thought patterns of wiccan philosophy enabled this recent syncretism. Just as how christianity enables spiritual weakness and defeatism.

Cringe political stereotyping aside.. I don't think you understand the demographic you are talking about. It isn't considered cool to be Wiccan anymore and most witches on witchtok dont identify that way... They are all demonalators, traditional witches or other now.

Those who still identify as Wiccan are usually older moderates, that yes may be slightly left leaning given the current polarization of the country. They tend to be BTW.

This isn't the 2000s and 2010s anymore..all the yungins have abandoned Wicca. In fact Gardner isn't well liked by the PC witch crowd... Often cited as homophobic though that's never been proven and sources that did claim it indicated more if an actual phobia than bigotry.. then of course, people saying Wicca is homophobic and anti-trans because it's ritual liturgy is rooted in a duotheistic gender-binary.

So I think you've missed the mark on that one.