witchtok

[Gregorius]

Magic is about finding connections - whether or not those connections actually exist

so youre saying i could make up my own magic system with nothing to base it off and it would just work?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

so youre saying i could make up my own magic system with nothing to base it off and it would just work?

Assuming that you believed in it sufficiently - that's one of the tenets of Chaos magic - "Magic requires a belief system; it doesn't matter what that belief system is"

So it wouldn't be "nothing" exactly - it would have to be based on things that had a deep meaning to you.

 

[Khoren_]

Assuming that you believed in it sufficiently - that's one of the tenets of Chaos magic - "Magic requires a belief system; it doesn't matter what that belief system is"

So it wouldn't be "nothing" exactly - it would have to be based on things that had a deep meaning to you.

isn't that how we get people invoking the spirit of Miss Piggy

 

[Gregorius]

Assuming that you believed in it sufficiently - that's one of the tenets of Chaos magic - "Magic requires a belief system; it doesn't matter what that belief system is"

So it wouldn't be "nothing" exactly - it would have to be based on things that had a deep meaning to you.

Not to completely derail but why then have these very deep and introcate systems
I mean i agree that believe is keyy but i also think that there are spirits and such wich is why it is more effective to use them than to just come up with your own stuff

 

[Aeternus]

Not to completely derail but why then have these very deep and introcate systems
I mean i agree that believe is keyy but i also think that there are spirits and such wich is why it is more effective to use them than to just come up with your own stuff

Believe is key. However, you can talk to the spirits and see what tunes more to you, and then come up with your own stuff

 

[Gregorius]

Not to completely derail but why then have these very deep and introcate systems
I mean i agree that believe is keyy but i also think that there are spirits and such wich is why it is more effective to use them than to just come up with your own stuff

This i think comes down to the fact that while humans are atleast partly divine most people have not awakened/honed their divine/spiritual side
ofcourse it is easy for someone with decades of practice to assume a purely chaotic view of things as you have enough spiritual power so you need not call upon any outer force for your magick but for someone like me who has less than a year of prectice i thinks its pretty dangerous to push that "believe is key" mindset since i dont have the spiritual capebilities to be self reliant and so i need to call upon other entities for that power

Post automatically merged: Jul 13, 2024

Believe is key. However, you can talk to the spirits and see what tunes more to you, and then come up with your own stuff

True but i think he was saying that those thing are real because we believe (i might have gotten that wrong sorry in advance) wich i dissagree with

 

[Khoren_]

This i think comes down to the fact that while humans are atleast partly divine most people have not awakened/honed their divine/spiritual side
ofcourse it is easy for someone with decades of practice to assume a purely chaotic view of things as you have enough spiritual power so you need not call upon any outer force for your magick but for someone like me who has less than a year of prectice i thinks its pretty dangerous to push that "believe is key" mindset since i dont have the spiritual capebilities to be self reliant and so i need to call upon other entities for that power

Post automatically merged: Jul 13, 2024

True but i think he was saying that those thing are real because we believe (i might have gotten that wrong sorry in advance) wich i dissagree with

When learning, you often learn the rules of others to learn what rules exist.
When you learn the rules, you learn what rules can be broken.
When you learn what rules can be broken, you learn how to bend all the rules.
When you learn how to bend the rules without breaking them, you realize the rules never existed in the first place.

At a high enough level, all practices are no better than free form jazz.

 

[Gregorius]

When learning, you often learn the rules of others to learn what rules exist.
When you learn the rules, you learn what rules can be broken.
When you learn what rules can be broken, you learn how to bend all the rules.
When you learn how to bend the rules without breaking them, you realize the rules never existed in the first place.

At a high enough level, all practices are no better than free form jazz.

Ah i see so rules are just well established methods wich are proven to work
But this means that still these spirits exist without believe right?

 

[Khoren_]

Ah i see so rules are just well established methods wich are proven to work
But this means that still these spirits exist without believe right?

Do you believe that the world exists?

 

[Gregorius]

Do you believe that the world exists?

well yes but i still will when im dead i hope

 

[Khoren_]

well yes but i still will when im dead i hope

I made a post in book reviews, i suggest you read, about how the world is created moment to moment. I mighyt do another write up on that one since im out all week.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Ah i see so rules are just well established methods wich are proven to work
But this means that still these spirits exist without believe right?

Crowley: “In this book it is spoken of... Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.”

The "intricate systems" give you a framework, and learning them programs them within your belief system. If a system has supposedly been handed down from Master to Master, isn't that more likely to install a stronger level of belief than summoning Miss Piggy?

In my opinion, it's the same kind of thing as why many religions say "Ours is the only true religion" in order to strengthen your beliefs in that particular religion.

 

[Gregorius]

Crowley: “In this book it is spoken of... Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.”

The "intricate systems" give you a framework, and learning them programs them within your belief system. If a system has supposedly been handed down from Master to Master, isn't that more likely to install a stronger level of belief than summoning Miss Piggy?

In my opinion, it's the same kind of thing as why many religions say "Ours is the only true religion" in order to strengthen your beliefs in that particular religion.

Doesnt this kind of discussion counteract that phylosophy tho
I mean learning that these things only exist because i believe in them and not because they just are doesnt seem to strengthen my believe

 

[Khoren_]

Doesnt this kind of discussion counteract that phylosophy tho
I mean learning that these things only exist because i believe in them and not because they just are doesnt seem to strengthen my believe

At some point read Liber Kaos or Liber Null

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Doesnt this kind of discussion counteract that phylosophy tho
I mean learning that these things only exist because i believe in them and not because they just are doesnt seem to strengthen my believe

This is why I recommend Stanislavski's "An Actor Prepares" as a magical book

Being able to manipulate your own belief systems is one of the things in Chaos Magic. The point is not whether they are true or not, the point is to believe in them so you can get your magical work done.

Post automatically merged: Jul 13, 2024

At some point read Liber Kaos or Liber Null

and yeah, there's a lot about manipulating belief systems in there.

 

[Gregorius]

At some point read Liber Kaos or Liber Null

This is why I recommend Stanislavski's "An Actor Prepares" as a magical book

Being able to manipulate your own belief systems is one of the things in Chaos Magic. The point is not whether they are true or not, the point is to believe in them so you can get your magical work done.

Post automatically merged: Jul 13, 2024

and yeah, there's a lot about manipulating belief systems in there.

Will read all those once i am further into my journey as i dont think i should touch chaos magick this early into my magickal journey as i havnt even talked to spirits yet

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Will read all those once i am further into my journey as i dont think i should touch chaos magick this early into my magickal journey as i havnt even talked to spirits yet

Confession: I have never knowingly talked to any spirits during the whole of my magical practice. I have not felt like I have missed anything.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, as they say.

 

[Khoren_]

Confession: I have never knowingly talked to any spirits during the whole of my magical practice. I have not felt like I have missed anything.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, as they say.

I personally studied theory for years before I picked up the staff

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I personally studied theory for years before I picked up the staff

hear hear. Admittedly, I was coming at it from a different angle (building a scientific explanation of magic) but the order of things was the same.

 

[Gregorius]

hear hear. Admittedly, I was coming at it from a different angle (building a scientific explanation of magic) but the order of things was the same.

i just started because i heard about freemasons on some (somewhat schizophrenic)conspiracy imageboard