Your thoughts on altered states of consciousness being 'mandatory'?

[MorganBlack]

In Hoodoo/Conjure, no trance nor altered state of consciousness is required nor sought. It is simply not part of the tradition. However African American root doctors also lived in a culture where magic (though they didn’t call it "magic"— since most were Christian) and spirits were just a given. So they can charge a talisman by simply putting in a Bible.

If you grew up in predominately scientific materialist culture , as most of us did, you probably have your work cut out for you. Trance, or altered states of consciousness, ("Gnosis" in Chaos Magic language), can help you get out of your own way.

Neville Goddard, whose work i highly recommend, would often do his New Thought manifestation sessions in the afternoon while dozing in his armchair after a glass of wine. But Neville was a professional dancer and was what we call today a "creative." Neville still made SATS (State Akin to Sleep) a core part of his New Thought method, and would recommend using your imagination to make things happen just before you went to sleep at night.

So I think it really depends on how much your left hemisphere of your brain can shut up and get out of the way, particularly if you are a left-brain analytical type, or are neurodivergent so that you become obsessed with trivial small details (bottom-up thinking).

 

[silencewaits]

In Hoodoo/Conjure, no trance nor altered state of consciousness is required nor sought. It is simply not part of the tradition. However African American root doctors also lived in a culture where magic (though they didn’t call it "magic"— since most were Christian) and spirits were just a given. So they can charge a talisman by simply putting in a Bible.

When someone's doing some work they are in a different state of mind than their day-to-day waking consciousness. There are other altered states of consciousness involved in the tradition. If you approach an altar made for your departed loved ones and ancestors to make offerings and receive support, you are in a different state of mind.

 

[MorganBlack]

Well said, Silencewaits! I totally agree!

Years ago I was impressed by Steven Heller 's book that suggested the same thing, that we are always in a form of trance. Our everyday state being a form of hypnosis we just accept as being normal.

Monsters and Magical Sticks: There's No Such Thing As Hypnosis?

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Sometimes I work in trance because I enjoy it, but often not. But the degree that modern magicians turn it into a requirement is a bit extreme. (And they'll also get obsessed with trivial incidentals like "energy" but that is a pet peeve of mine.)

Some rituals I have used for some time, like the Headless Rite, have extreme effect on me, and without me doing much more than saying the words, that it sometimes catches me off guard afterwards. I think of it as having done that rite enough it's "activated" (or whatever) and so then I can step into ritual (as I think of it), at any time.

 

[Promise]

I was wondering about something that seems to be the consensus amongst my local peers: one must be in an altered state of mind/gnostic state to perform any magickal operation.
For me, it is not something that's obligatory, but sorta helps me keep my mind censor in check, so that I don't think about how ridiculous I look praying over oils and herbs or dressed in ceremonial garb addressing the spirits.
I'd love to read y'alls input and, if possible, learning a bit of your experience

IMHO ... yes its mandatory, AND it only needs to be a slight shift that can be accessed in just a few seconds.

Post automatically merged: Mar 31, 2025

Well said, Silencewaits! I totally agree!

Years ago I was impressed by Steven Heller 's book that suggested the same thing, that we are always in a form of trance. Our everyday state being a form of hypnosis we just accept as being normal.

Monsters and Magical Sticks: There's No Such Thing As Hypnosis?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Sometimes I work in trance because I enjoy it, but often not. But the degree that modern magicians turn it into a requirement is a bit extreme. (And they'll also get obsessed with trivial incidentals like "energy" but that is a pet peeve of mine.)

Some rituals I have used for some time, like the Headless Rite, have extreme effect on me, and without me doing much more than saying the words, that it sometimes catches me off guard afterwards. I think of it as having done that rite enough it's "activated" (or whatever) and so then I can step into ritual (as I think of it), at any time.

Monsters and Magical Sticks is a GREAT Hypnosis / NLP book, BTW

 

[jkeller293]

I believe the act of ritual is what induces you into a state of mind.

Some practices require an act of ritual purification before ritual, and i guess i could have the same viewpoint with that as well.

That said, in my opinion yes, state of mind matters for magick.

Post automatically merged: May 3, 2025

If you want to call belief a state of mind, i would say that is the most important aspect of all.

 

[skeletonkey]

It's rubbish, unless one considers concentration itself an "altered state".... Which I would also find to be redundant garbage.

"Altered states" are only so necessary because the average mind is hardly conducive to magical operation, existing in a distracted fog of mental preoccupation. Thus using trance or an altered state is usually required to place the mind in a position of mental vacancy and effective focus to operate magic.

Those who take the steps to properly develop the mind for the pursuit of magic, however, need no such things.
I've never had to use anything more than my waking concentration + conviction for any of my operations, but that is because I have spent the time necessary to refine the mind into a tool suitable for magic.
The conscientious use of altered states has never been a component of my practices.

I'm not denying their ability to assist practitioners, to be clear, merely pointing out that they are not necessary if proper steps are taken in one's development.
Necessary for the average Joe, though? Definitely.

What have you found has worked best for you in terms of refining your mind for magic?

 

[DDIVINE2026]

I was wondering about something that seems to be the consensus amongst my local peers: one must be in an altered state of mind/gnostic state to perform any magickal operation.
For me, it is not something that's obligatory, but sorta helps me keep my mind censor in check, so that I don't think about how ridiculous I look praying over oils and herbs or dressed in ceremonial garb addressing the spirits.
I'd love to read y'alls input and, if possible, learning a bit of your experience

Hmmm that's interesting and intriguing. I don't feel silly praying over oils and candles for me it's no different than praying to be safe today, praying to get the job or the concept of praying/preying on someone's downfall. But it makes me think of certain ceremonies that get done in certain practices and when the person gets mounted by a Spirit of you will how it alters their mind and brings about certain gifts, premonitions and altered state of minds if you will.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:51 AM

Hmmm that's interesting and intriguing. I don't feel silly praying over oils and candles for me it's no different than praying to be safe today, praying to get the job or the concept of praying/preying on someone's downfall. But it makes me think of certain ceremonies that get done in certain practices and when the person gets mounted by a Spirit of you will how it alters their mind and brings about certain gifts, premonitions and altered state of minds if you will.

Or how pills alter our state of mind to not feel pain or to help us concentrate or stop obsessive behaviors or to stop being depressed. Things like that.

 

[ahathoor]

wow, such thread necro xD

anyway... I think I'm mostly on the opinion that "altered states" is a bit of a modernist splitting of hairs... the mind has its innumerable natural ways of mobility and operation, many of which have begun to be heavily discouraged and disparaged from around the rise of Baroque rationalism and enlightenment

when the 20th-21st century magician says you need to go to lv9 gnosis to cast, it's kinda like when Yogananda saw how westerners can't f'n sit on the ground for an hour and get up after, decided he needs to start slow with these people.

your states should "alter" naturally and as a flow as you live, read poetry, connect with others, and work magic... one does need the mental flexibility and proprioception... and if you do, you markedly do not need a lengthy induction / relaxation to start; you take a Bible or your Book of Shadows, and you're already moved just by this act; you sit an your altar, smell the herbs, you're already there... at least, ideally.

typical Westerners differentiate between sleeping, wakefulness and like maybe hypnosis, but most won't even know for shit that they are hypnotized until you prove it... if someone's at that level of degraded mental proprioception, then conscious trancework is definitely helpful

 

[skeletonkey]

was wondering about something that seems to be the consensus amongst my local peers: one must be in an altered state of mind/gnostic state to perform any magickal operation.
For me, it is not something that's obligatory, but sorta helps me keep my mind censor in check, so that I don't think about how ridiculous I look praying over oils and herbs or dressed in ceremonial garb addressing the spirits.
I'd love to read y'alls input and, if possible, learning a bit of your experience

---

Haha, love the candor. One of my first rituals involved a simple piece of paper, pen, bag of salt and some other steps.

I remember looking at the instructions thinking how ridiculous they were and how "I may as well throw in some eye of newt while I'm at it". Good thing that inner idiot was wrong.

Short answer: Depends on if a ritual requires it or not, but, as for "must" for "any" = NO

More nuanced answer: This is an interesting question really because language creates distinctions that often don't actually exist or make dynamic processes sound like static objects.

First, depends on how you even define "magickal operation".

Many use Crowley's, which is old hat so I won't repeat it. But based on his, which many people subscribe to (I don't), even a highly persuasive attorney qualifies as a magician. And I assure you, some are.

But again, more words getting in the way. "Magic", "magician", "gnostic state".

Honestly, I think that's where the real problem is, in the question, not in reality. Framed this way, magic sounds like a separate, special activity you have to switch into a special mode for.

The way I see it, there's just however reality already works. Some people naturally have, or develop, more awareness and skill working with it, using various models as interfaces to whatever the fuck reality actually is. Nothing to switch on. Do we call ourselves "water drinkers"?

Altered states. We move through them naturally throughout the day. No extra effort needed.

If someone's attention is present, they'll notice their states changing, and notice when ones that are quite auspicious for magical operations show up on their own.

Obviously one can alter their state intentionally through innumerable methods to chill that mind censor out.

Literally one solid breath done properly can do that. Or simply nothing at all, like someone commented.

Be physically still momentarily and your state will change. So can simply extending your gaze out to your peripheral vision. With practice you can do full magic rituals with eyes closed and body still.

Same goes for multi-modality rituals (sound, movement, visualization, whatever). Start with simple ones and they're quite easy to do.

Repeat them enough and they get conditioned in, and once that happens, the whole operation can be re-activated with very little effort or necessity to alter one's state unless their mind is distracted, monkey mind, etc. In which case, intentionally changing their state makes sense.

Also, when I hear words like "must" and "any", I immediately become highly skeptical of the claims.

Words like those...I hear chains dragging, approaching...

Not saying there's nothing to it, but those are quite bold claims and deserve some real consideration before ingesting wholesale.

 

[ursa.arutan]

I think there are a lot of levels to what you're talking about. Many of the components of ritual serve to alter your consciousness, and tools such as bells and rattles can be effective at breaking up 'normal reality'. I think it is true that magickal aims will be aided by your powers of focus and clarity of mind, and so there are things you can do to support that. Specific trance states and states of 'gnosis' can be powerful, but in my experience it is not the only way. And when it comes to substances, they can be useful tools but not always effective, potentially dangerous, and I've always preferred sobriety in my practice except for specific intentional instances. Experiment and find what is effective for you.

 

[solxyz]

While I agree with everything that people have already said in problematizing the phrase 'altered state,' I still think it's a useful term even if its messy around the edges. My answer to the initial question, then, is that usually the altered state is a consequence of me doing what I need to do in order to work my magic rather than being itself an active ingredient.

First there is concentration. Powerful enough concentration will, in itself, induce remarkable altered states. The Buddhists have mapped these out, under the term 'jhanas,' and notably, identify the 4th jhana as the access point to 'siddhis' or magic powers.

Second, there is the process of attuning myself to a rather foreign phenomenon, whether this is the mental state of a spirit, or an aspect of another person's bioenergy, or whatever. Honestly, this is some far out shit. The mode in which spirits exist is quite different than the way we exist, and a lot of these spirits have perspectives that are bizarre by human standards. There is no way that entering into their perspective, even partially, as one must if one wishes to understand them or have any kind of dialog with them, is not going to induce one into a mental state that is strikingly different than any of one's normal, daily operating modes.

When I am deep in some spirit work, I am more 'altered' than I am doing anything else in life, even if I have dozens of different states that I might visit during the course of a day. And honestly that is a big part of why I love magic so much. I love stretching my mind in those ways and getting high on the spirit contact.