What does it take to enter Heaven?

[Kepler]

If to 'enter heaven' means to be remembered by entities in an immanent, hylozoic, hyperdimensional bulk for reincarnation, then that's a result of an intended or natural chiral asymmetric alignment with the universe leading to the recognized positive sum of the associated local temporal pattern becoming retained nonlocally after death.

It's important to note that this natural selection applies to all biological life and any discrete pattern be it a sunset or raindrops as the universe evolves. And that being immanent it doesn't support or need any theistic or panentheistic considerations to model the operation or put it in motion.

One more important ontological note, hylo isn't panpsychism. It's perhaps best explained as a universal force that loops in discrete patterns that causes consciousness to emerge.

 

[MorganBlack]

And the “I want to be my own god” part...
St Peter: “Yeah, yeah. We’ll talk about that later. First, let's discuss your behavior down there.”

Ahha! Love it. First behavior, then metaphysics, eh?

I just don't like the fear and trembling in modern occultism. Not helping there.

I was half-joking with “I want to be my own god,” but the Church actually agrees more than LHP folks might expect. All without importing Hindu or Theosophical terms. Left-Hand Path” is not Western. It comes from Indian Tantra (all good, just needs some better containment.)

In the language of the Western Mystical tradition you are called to “share the divine nature,” to "reign with Christ", to “judge angels,” and to “sit on thrones.” The Church sees its mission as one of making saints, and as a saint you get to help oversee reality.

From St. Athanasius (who I think was Orthodox) "He became man, that man might become God". The authoritative Latin edition of the Catechism renders it as: ut nos dii efficeremu - "that we might be made gods. "

So is Catholicism actually a D&D alignment Lawful Good LHP? Asking for a friend.

Fuck. Let me add. LaVey and Aquino, much of the whole modern occult LHP ediface is largely reactive, or plagarising. There is no real need to tear down the Church. Slave morality revalues from resentment. This is the stance of small men full of Nietzschean ressentiment. An inverted slave is still a slave. If your entire identity is “not the Church,” you are still standing in the Church’s shadow. A soul full of nobility creates values, it does not merely invert them, or simply repackage them with devil horns.

 

[Eldros]

Ahha! Love it. First behavior, then metaphysics, eh?

I just don't like the fear and trembling in modern occultism. Not helping there.

I was half-joking with “I want to be my own god,” but the Church actually agrees more than LHP folks might expect. All without importing Hindu or Theosophical terms. Left-Hand Path” is not Western. It comes from Indian Tantra (all good, just needs some better containment.)

In the language of the Western Mystical tradition you are called to “share the divine nature,” to "reign with Christ", to “judge angels,” and to “sit on thrones.” The Church sees its mission as one of making saints, and as a saint you get to help oversee reality.

From St. Athanasius (who I think was Orthodox) "He became man, that man might become God". The authoritative Latin edition of the Catechism renders it as: ut nos dii efficeremu - "that we might be made gods. "

So is Catholicism actually a D&D alignment Lawful Good LHP? Asking for a friend.

Fuck. Let me add. LaVey and Aquino, much of the whole modern occult LHP ediface is largely reactive, or plagarising. There is no real need to tear down the Church. Slave morality revalues from resentment. This is the stance of small men full of Nietzschean ressentiment. An inverted slave is still a slave. If your entire identity is “not the Church,” you are still standing in the Church’s shadow. A soul full of nobility creates values, it does not merely invert them, or simply repackage them with devil horns.

I think the “inverted slave” point is the part I find most interesting.
There’s a difference between genuinely creating your own values and simply defining yourself against the Church.
And the Catholic idea of becoming “godlike” is charming, especially since I still don't know what, if anything, actually awaits us after death. Maybe all these traditions are describing something real, or maybe they're different ways humans have tried to make sense of the unknown.
So I guess I'm still at the gates with Peter saying, -- “I have no idea what's on the other side, but let's talk about what I did with my life first.”

 

[FireBorn]

I would ask Peter how it feels to never enter heaven himself, rather just hold the keys from the outside. Oops.

 

[Nembra]

So is Catholicism actually a D&D alignment Lawful Good LHP? Asking for a friend.

Catholicism gets very chaotic at times, but more importantly I don't think becoming god is a defining feature of LHP, despite what many of its practitioners think and claim. Intuitively, there seems to be some deeper component that skews it towards revisionism and those edgy aesthetics.

 

[MorganBlack]

I hear yah , Nembra. I'm a crap Folk Catholic who does his best to translate fine points of Catholic mysticism , but I know I often miss the mark.

Dammit, Fireborn. Don't make me put on the scapular, but Peter at the gates is folklore , not official Catholic doctrine.

And whoa, whoa! LHP folks. Mind your lane. Your Devil's Discotheque is over in a different section.

Just to put a fine point on it, from the Orthodox side:

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[Pneuma_Purifier]

I’m open to the possibility that consciousness is more than we can understand, but I wonder how you can tell whether an OBE is truly taking you outside of your brain.

During my first conscious out-of-body experience (OBE) in a hypnagogic state, I was violently expelled from my chest up to the roof of a five story building, even though I was physically on the second floor. I forced the experience after trying unsuccessfully for three months.

Once out of my body, I instantly recognized that my consciousness was in two places simultaneously. On the roof, I could travel at the speed of thought in an astral body with 360-degree spherical vision, while remaining continuously aware of my physical body's breathing. Because you maintain full control, if your astral body encounters any problem, such as a group of archon entities following you, you can wake up instantly.

I’d really like to know what it actually feels like, because that’s the part I find very interesting.

If an OBE is fully conscious, it feels as though you are the Matrix. Since you are connected to everything, you can travel anywhere with your mind. However, to visit archetypal realms like Hell or Heaven, you need to increase or decrease your vibration, whereas visiting places like Purgatory requires only a simple wish.

Every traveler perceives the astral realms in a distinct and individual way, it depends on their personal vibration/development.

 

[Firetree]

Goetic magician. Saturn aspected. Death and Hell is my jam.

First, omg, This is the crux of it all, eh? And a very fraught topic, so best to ground in history ideas rather than internet.

In my view, drawing on the ancient Stoics, Catholicism, and ancient Orphism, as well as my own mystical experiences:

To enter “Heaven” which is a weird and probably the most fraught of all fraught words, aside from "taxes" or "magic" - it helps to see that for thousands of years it was seen as both a state of consciousness AND the “upper” part of the afterlife.The deep historical traditions all say the same thing, and the answer given here is often simpler than the elaborate ritual systems of most the ancient mystery cults would suggest.

Basically all you need to do is live a good life and learn to be calm. No secret rituals needed , no secret-decoder ring initiations, no esoteric knowledge is required. The Stoic apatheia, the Catholic Beatific Vision, and the Orphic purification of the emotions all describe the same basic metjods to make the soul fit for a state of peace and light by the cultivation of virtue and the mastery of turbulent passions/emotions such as anger, wrath, guilt, covetousness/grasping, and scheming/scrupulosity. Basically, all what we can call the “toxic ego” in a Buddhist way.

(The deep similarity of the teachings of Buddhism and Christianity is another topic and which entire books have been written, and I can't do just here. See The Noble Eightfold Path of Christ - Jesus teaches the Dharma of Buddhism by Thomas Ragland. 2003)

Okay, the Stoics.

The Stoics held that the soul at death is either "sent forth into a better life, destined to dwell with deity amid greater radiance and calm, or else, at least, without suffering any harm to itself, it will be mingled with nature again". They believed in reincarnation before it was trendy. This "greater radiance and calm" is the key here. The Stoic afterlife is a state of being that mirrors the soul's moral and emotional condition in life. Sound familiar, becasue it should. The Stoic goal of apatheia - as freedom from destructive passions - was not just an ethical ideal but a preparation for the soul's post-mortem state.

As the Catholic Encyclopedia notes, the Stoics "preached their apatheia" as the means by which one becomes "master of your self and fate". No special rituals were required becasue virtue itself was sufficient.

Orphism adds another dimension here with the purification of the soul from the "Titanic" elements of emotional turbulence and bodily attachment. The Orphic doctrine held that the soul must be purified by "passing through the elements which moved in sublunary space—air, water and fire." This was seen as a post-mortem ordeal reminiscent of Merkabah mysticism (that St. Paul was maybe a practitioner of, but this is debated.

Both Orphic and Merkabah traditions describe the soul's ascent through hostile or graded post-mortem realms after death - or in visionary experience - much like (or, cough, EXECTLY like) the Golden Dawn grades btw, hint, hint - with aboth emphasize purification as the prerequisite for reaching the highest state. In Orphism, the soul passes through the sublunary elements. in Merkabah, the mystic ascends through the hekhalot (palaces) guarded by angelic powers. The difference is that Orphic purification was primarily post-mortem (though ritual initiations anticipated it), while Merkabah ascent was a this-worldly visionary practice - though it was believed to mirror and prepare for the soul's postmortem journey. (hint hint)

Belgian historian of religion Franz Cumont (1868–1947), in his book "After Life in Roman Paganism" (Yale University Press, 1922). Has a discussion of Orphic and Pythagorean eschatology, where he contrasts the Orphic hope of escaping reincarnation through ritual purification with the broader pagan philosophical view that virtue alone could achieve the same end.

"No, the ancient Orphics already flattered themselves that by their cathartic rites they obtained for the soul an escape from the fatal cycle of generation and regaining of heaven for ever. The Pythagoreans inherited this doctrine, which they kept until the Roman period. In spite of the contrary opinion of certain thinkers, pagan philosophers and priests generally taught that after pilgrimages, more or less long, after a succession of deaths and rebirths, the purified spirits returned to dwell for ever in their celestial country. It was to this goal that the mysteries promised to lead their initiate; this was the end which the sages flattered themselves that they attained by their virtue."

Basically what he notes that the mysteries promised this goal to initiates by their rites - but that the sages claimed to attain the same objective by virtue. Here we can see the an early rift between "religion / philosophy" on one end and religon/theosis /theurgy / mysticism on the other. History contains both the ritualist claims and the virtue-based counter-claims.

FYI Sorcery is not concerned with the afterlife - only getting laid, paid and getting even. And sorcerers think you mystics are all air-fariy hippies.

Anyway, Catholic mystical theology dove-tails with this Stoic insight very cleanly. The Catechism describes Heaven as the "Beatific Vision," which is "characterized by a deep experience and unmediated knowledge of God, resulting in complete and utter happiness". Crucially, this is not primarily a physical location but "a state of being". The mystics consistently describe the soul's union with God in terms of consciousness and interior state. St. Teresa of Avila's "seventh dwelling place" is described as "the stage of full and perfect union with God through man's intellect and will contemplating God's essence and finding both the ultimate peace and joy therein". This is a state of consciousness that can, in principle, be anticipated in mystical contemplation during life. The "calm" the Stoics sought is the same "ultimate peace" the Catholic mystic finds in God.

I should add there here is a doctrine I utterly reject , which is that of the anti-cosmic "Second Death" post-mortem idea.

The ancient Egyptians had a horrible concept they called mw.t n wḥm - which literally meant "death of repetition" or "second death." This was not a physical death - that which was the first death and the gateway to the afterlife. The Second Death was the complete obliteration of your existence that followed the severe judgment of the dead. If the deceased's heart was weighed against the feather of Ma'at and found it is heavy (notes of Orphism again. I try to pay close attention when the same themes keep coming up again and again.) , the monster Ammit the Devourer - a cosmic monster that looked like a a hybrid of crocodile, lion, and hippopotamus, would consume the heart. Without a heart the disincarnated person could not exist in the afterlife. The Coffin Texts and the Book of the Dead contain spells explicitly meant to prevent this fate. The deceased recites formulas to ensure he will not "die a second time" in the underworld.

The Second Death appears again later in a particular strand of apocalyptic Judaism and some Christian thinking. I want to make it absolutely clear that Catholicism rejects these ideas as anti-human and anti-cosmic, as do I.

In the Aramaic Targums, the "second death" is the fate of the wicked in Gehinnom - a place of punishment and purification. In Revelation, the "second death" is equated with the lake of fire, the final destination of death, Hades, and all whose names are not in the Book of Life. This is not annihilation. It is a state of eternal ruin, whether understood as conscious torment or as a definitive separation from God.

The Catholic Church rejects total annihilation-ism as incompatible with the nature of the immortal soul and with the gravity of sin. As Catholic apologist Karlo Broussard explains, "For someone to definitively reject themselves from God but yet be annihilated, it would in some way seem to undermine the gravity of the sin." The soul is created for eternity and its choices have eternal weight. Annihilation would make the soul's final choice meaningless.

And more fundamentally, the Church rejects the anti-cosmic dualism that underlies the "second death" imagery. The idea that there is a "lake of fire" outside of God's good creation, a realm of pure destruction into which the damned are thrown. That idea is a purely Manichaean contruct - and hinges on the idea that there are two ultimate principles, one good and one evil, one of light and one of darkness, and that the evil principle has its own domain of ruin. The Catholic faith rejects this absolutely. There is one God, the Creator of all things visible and invisible. Everything that exists is good, because it is created by God. Evil is not a substance; it is a privation of good, a perversion of the will. Hell is not a place God created for the wicked; it is the state of a soul that has cut itself off from the source of all life and goodness.

Sorry for the preaching, but it only sounds that way because people only think of Catholicism as a religion (which it is too) rather than what it is first - a mystical practice concerned only with making sure you have a better post-mortem experience. The goal is to become a certain kind of being, one capable of experiencing the Beatific Vision, which is not a place but a state of consciousness, a state of union with God.

Anyway, what the Stoics called it apatheia. The Orphics called purification. The Catholic mystics call it the Unitive Way. It is all the same method in different cutlire and mythic languages - but we might also see them the shared methods and techniques to strip away the "toxic ego," of our turbulent passions, the grasping, the guilt, the wrath, the scheming, the scrupulosity - so that the soul becomes light, calm, and fit for eternity in the better places of the afterlife. (What this mean is a whole other topic) .

I hate it so a horrible, anti-human, anticosmic heresy it makes my eyes wobble. Sorry to go on about this! This is why the "second death" doctrine is so alien to the mystical POINT of all this, in my opinion. A God who annihilates souls or tortures them forever is not the God of the mystics. The God of Teresa of Avila, of John of the Cross, of Catherine of Siena, is a God of love who respects the soul's freedom so profoundly that He allows it to choose separation - but that separation is a state of the soul, not an act of divine violence. Again, sorry for what sounds like preaching.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:10 PM

Hmm. I tired to add this to the above:

Basically all you need to do is live a good life and learn to be calm. (And the living of the "good life" in the mystical traditions is only to help make you calm and centered. We can think of it as "avoiding all drama and hysteria" but raised to the level of a mystical practice.)

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 5:02 PM

Oh, one note for modern times. Sorry to go on abut this.

As a Folk Catholic dual-faith mystic (Catholic and Thelemite) and magician - but also hetero, and also a pro-LGBTQ lefty - there are points I feel need addressing here. My houngan was gay. The Haitian lwa were always coming to him and saying he needed to get married and have kids. He was like, “Nope, that's not gonna happen.” But to them, as ancient long-view beings, that was just what the “good life” meant to them - but one that, I think, if we insist too much, only creates drama, suffering, and hysteria that might cause the soul to become upset and disquieted. The mystics tell us that the soul must be calm, purified, freed from turbulent passions. But what does forcing a gay man into a straight marriage produce here? Drama. Suffering. Hysteria. The turbulence all the mystics warn against. It produces a soul at war with itself.

So I just wanted to say, while I talk about Catholic mystical traditions, that I also disagree with some of the more conservative interpretations of the Church’s teachings. To those who are reticent to enage with the better Catholcisms, yeah I get it. (And to more right-wing people: I also don’t want turbo-lib rainbow virtue-signalling plastered over all signage and media. Some is fine.)

I think what happened is the Church has not changed from the more pro-natalist agrarian times. Your community and peoples really did need more people to survive when there was no healthcare system, and kids to take care of the elderly. The total East-West Church as an alost 2 thousand year of insitution move much more slowly beacsue they still have to speak to over 1.4 billion Catholics on a PLANETARY scale, often in very conservative cultures who would rebel at full interjection of Western liberalism.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 5:03 PM

Oh, one note for modern times. Sorry to go on abut this.

As a Folk Catholic dual-faith mystic (Catholic and Thelemite) and magician - but also hetero, and also a pro-LGBTQ lefty - there are points I feel need addressing here. My houngan was gay. The Haitian lwa were always coming to him and saying he needed to get married and have kids. He was like, “Nope, that's not gonna happen.” But to them, as ancient long-view beings, that was just what the “good life” meant to them - but one that, I think, if we insist too much, only creates drama, suffering, and hysteria that might cause the soul to become upset and disquieted. The mystics tell us that the soul must be calm, purified, freed from turbulent passions. But what does forcing a gay man into a straight marriage produce here? Drama. Suffering. Hysteria. The turbulence all the mystics warn against. It produces a soul at war with itself.

So I just wanted to say, while I talk about Catholic mystical traditions, that I also disagree with some of the more conservative interpretations of the Church’s teachings. To those who are reticent to enage with the better Catholcisms, yeah I get it. (And to more right-wing people: I also don’t want turbo-lib rainbow virtue-signalling plastered over all signage and media. Some is fine.)

I think what happened is the Church has not changed from the more pro-natalist agrarian times. Your community and peoples really did need more people to survive when there was no healthcare system, and kids to take care of the elderly. The total East-West Church as an alost 2 thousand year of insitution move much more slowly beacsue they still have to speak to over 1.4 billion Catholics on a PLANETARY scale, often in very conservative cultures who would rebel at full interjection of Western liberalism.

Good comprehensive post If I might add a variation on ( the 'development of ' ) the 'second death' concept ;

First though Tibetan Buddhism ; the 2nd transitional state ( bardo ) of the 49 day postmortem journey ; the 1st is the physical death, the 2nd is described as a luminous, intense, and sometimes terrifying projection of peaceful and wrathful deities, ( which are said to be actually reflections of one's own mind ) . I add to this 'luminous and intense and sometimes blissful projections of whatever good things our minds expected and projected' ) . And after all this the next stage where we are pulled towards rebirth .

The Tibetans dont actually use the term ' 2nd death' , that is an interpretation bought about by studies in comparative religion and esoteric philosophy (eg . Blavatsky ), or Western psychological attempts to map the Tibetan view onto western ideas

But basically it suggests ; what we believe and think will happen and what we feel about ourselves ( good and / or bad ) plays out in some type of echo chamber . The Tibetan teaching is not to 'get caught up in that ' . But they teach 'not to get caught up in the rebirth aspect as well . This ignores ( but does in a way include, in some traditions ) the 'Bodhisattva' or (Tibetan ) Tulku and is also represented in symbology in the V deg .

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:28 PM

I would ask Peter how it feels to never enter heaven himself, rather just hold the keys from the outside. Oops.

Maybe Peter (d)evolved from the concept of the Zoroastrian Daena , the maiden that leads you over the Chinvat Bridge to the 'House of Song' .... if you been good . If not , you dont make the crossing .

Sorta similar to a figure at the gate with keys thats let you in or out .

'Slip' off the Bridge ? (it gets very narrow at the end , like a blade's edge . ) You fall into the 'house of lies' .



"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." —

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Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:34 PM

and it is a very interesting metaphor ; song and lies ... when one considers the pre literate source of this ancient religion and philosophy that gave origin to MANY later traditions and beliefs of Abrahamic religions *

Song was the basis of encapsulating all previous experience, knowledge and laws . Lies were the opposite of truth telling and 'keeping your word' ... essential for upholding contracts in pre-literate society .

*

Spoiler

AI Overview



Abrahamic religions—particularly through the evolution of Second Temple Judaism during and after the Babylonian exile—inherited several foundational eschatological and theological concepts from

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. [

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Key Concepts and Beliefs

• • Cosmic Dualism and Satan: The clear personification of an ultimate evil force (Angra Mainyu/Ahriman) standing in opposition to God heavily influenced the development of the figure of Satan and cosmic adversity in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. [
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  • Heaven and Hell: While earlier Hebrew thought had a vague concept of Sheol (a neutral underworld), the distinct moral binary of reward in Heaven or punishment in Hell post-death closely mirrors Zoroastrian eschatology. [
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  • Judgment Day and Individual Judgment: The belief in a specific accounting of a person's deeds immediately after death, alongside a grand, final Day of Judgment for all of humanity, was widely popularized by
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  • Resurrection of the Dead: The physical or spiritual resurrection of humanity at the end of time transitioned into Jewish apocalyptic literature after prolonged contact with Persian thought. [
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  • An End-Times Savior: The concept of a coming messiah or savior figure (such as the Zoroastrian Saoshyant) parallels messianic expectations in the Abrahamic traditions. [
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  • Angels and Demons: A structured celestial hierarchy of benevolent spiritual intermediaries (angels/archangels) and malevolent spirits (demons) became sharply defined in post-exilic religious texts

 

[MorganBlack]

Good comprehensive post

Thanks, Firetree!

I actually don’t think Catholicism does a great job talking about what exactly they mean when they talk about the post-mortem landscape you’ll find yourself in.

The "bodily resurrection" is given more nuance by Harpur in The Secret Tradition of the Soul, a book I will keep socializing until it sinks in the popular folkloric conception. Mostly, becasue - based on places I've been "taken to" which are not important - but that the total vision here is joyful and optimistic. Be not afraid!

Book – EPUB/MOBI - Patrick Harpur - The Secret Tradition of the Soul (2011)

Patrick Harpur's 'The Secret Tradition of the Soul' is a book I feel it should be read by all occultists, and magicians, including neopagans, and anyone who works in Mythic Space. This book ideally should be read along with Harpur's book 'Daimonic Reality,' and Karen Armstrong's excellent 'A...

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Basically, “heaven, hell, purgatory, the Tibetan bardos” (all the names here) are all regions in the World Soul. We are in the World Soul right now, in a body - hence why it’s a “bodily resurrection.

The Church is wisely reticent about geography, which only fascinates the popular imagination, but gives us a grammar of states of consciousness relative to joy. My framework is a sort of Harpurian Neoplatonic Idealism, and I think it does what Catholic eschatology leaves unsaid, without contradicting it.

But the idea that I’ll float off into a some abstract Gnostic-Platonic Supercosm radiation field - or that you’ll have a succession of Hindu-New Age infinite resurrected bodies are both not right. You don’t dissolve, and you don’t recycle. You remain yourself in the World Soul, embodied in the imaginal body.

The endless succession of bodies is not the goal either.That image is from the Hinduism -New Age -LHP-pipeline gives us a reading of reincarnation as an infinite series of lives, each one another installment of the same pattern. Catholicism teaches one life, then" judgment," then "resurrection" into the New Creation. Harpur’s “bodily resurrection” is not the idea of another body again and again - it is the soul’s embodiment in the imaginal body, a mode of presence in the World Soul.

Basically, the Western Tradition here is you remain yourself. You are already held in the World Soul. Death is neither dissolution nor reincarnation. It is a change of region. The “body” you have is the imaginal body - (now and after death, I will add). "Heaven" is the state of consciousness and a state of environment in which you know yourself as you are now in the World Soul... still. That is neither the Gnostic escape nor the Hindu-to-New Age infinite loops.

Oh, if you want a pretty great image of what you Own Private Purgatory might look like, check out The Others with Nicole Kidman. To be fair to Catholcism to not to hijack their theology, she would be Wandering Shade (a muerto) that sometimes resuls from a violent death, murder, acdident, or dying in battle etc.

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The whole film is basically a meditation on purgation as the soul stuck in a region of the World Soul that mirrors its own denial, its own unfinished business, its own need for healing and forgiveness.

 

[Amizodpalsdon]

Saint Peter is shown as holding the keys to the gates of eternity and deciding who is allowed entry.

The Biblical Passage is: Matthew 16:18–19. Jesus says to Peter:
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

I wonder what would really matter if we were in front of those gates.
Would Saint Peter ask as to our faith in God?
Did we try to live a good life, repent, love others, forgive, or assist others?
Would our goals be less important than our mistakes? And is anyone really deserving of paradise?

What do you think Saint Peter would check for before opening the gates, if you had to be totally honest?

That's a tough question if you've been brought up, especially baptised, in a Judeo-Christian religion yet follow a totally different religion or philosophy but if you 'follow me' I'll be only too happy to let you know if I get there - wouldn't hold my breath though

 

[Nembra]

Basically, “heaven, hell, purgatory, the Tibetan bardos” (all the names here) are all regions in the World Soul. We are in the World Soul right now, in a body - hence why it’s a “bodily resurrection.

The Church is wisely reticent about geography, which only fascinates the popular imagination, but gives us a grammar of states of consciousness relative to joy. My framework is a sort of Harpurian Neoplatonic Idealism, and I think it does what Catholic eschatology leaves unsaid, without contradicting it.

But the idea that I’ll float off into a some abstract Gnostic-Platonic Supercosm radiation field - or that you’ll have a succession of Hindu-New Age infinite resurrected bodies are both not right. You don’t dissolve, and you don’t recycle. You remain yourself in the World Soul, embodied in the imaginal body.

That is certainly an interpretation. The "states of consciousness" is a relatively well-thought-out idea, actually. God is in heaven and he's eternal, so heaven can't be spatial or temporal. Humans by nature have bodies made of matter, so human afterlife must be a physical place as well. The only way you can resolve this is to employ the New Earth as the promised paradise and heaven as a sort of intersecting plane of "closeness to God". Of course then you need a good grasp on non-linear time to make Communion of Saints make sense, so it's not a popular variant in folklore, and even - sadly - among theologians.

 

[MorganBlack]

Yeah, Catholicism has never formally embraced "All is Mind" or the better "All is Imagination." Too close to pantheism. I get it .

But it's not because Catholic thinkers never entertained the idea. Several major figures John Eriugena, Eckhart, and Nicholas of Cusa developed sophisticated forms of Christian Neoplatonic idealism that rhymes nicely with Harpur and Bernado Kastrup, But each of the earlier thinkers were either was condemned, narrowly avoided condemnation, or very carefully qualified their position to avoid the charge of pantheism.

And while not all pantheisms are bad, but without deep theology or ethical guardrails people just start woshiping rocks and twigs again. Or worse ... crystals, like today. And if everything is God, then evil is God. Suffering is God. Genocide is God. The torture of a child is God. Do whatever you want. So I get the reticence.

 

[Eldros]

That's a tough question if you've been brought up, especially baptised, in a Judeo-Christian religion yet follow a totally different religion or philosophy but if you 'follow me' I'll be only too happy to let you know if I get there - wouldn't hold my breath though

None of us really knows what's waiting for us anyway..
Maybe there's a Saint Peter and some gates, maybe there's something completely different or maybe there's simply nothing and we just vanish.
But if there is something on the other side, I’d like to think it’s more about the kind of person we were and how we treated others, rather than /whether we got everything right.
And if you get there before me, you’ll have to send me a message and let me know what it’s like.

 

[Aeternus]

Saint Peter is shown as holding the keys to the gates of eternity and deciding who is allowed entry.

The Biblical Passage is: Matthew 16:18–19. Jesus says to Peter:
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

I wonder what would really matter if we were in front of those gates.
Would Saint Peter ask as to our faith in God?
Did we try to live a good life, repent, love others, forgive, or assist others?
Would our goals be less important than our mistakes? And is anyone really deserving of paradise?

What do you think Saint Peter would check for before opening the gates, if you had to be totally honest?

Well, entering Heaven is more than having faith in God. Faith without acts is something that is like fire without oxygen - it can't exist. Bible Verses for this are: James 2:17: "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead and James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

And now, what do I mean by faith... is not the exoteric view but rather the esoteric view. I for one am an Unitarian Universalist. My belief is based on a lot of teachings from Judaism and Christianity (all Abrahamic religions btw). Notice the connection? Abraham, the first prophet of God and then the two first major religions? I practice a lot of occultism and spiritual practices, each with their own views of the underworld, some even more complex than the idea of St. Peter guarding the gates of Heaven (thing itself which is more complex as well but more on that later on in this post).

If I don't help the poor, be kind, have a humble and honest heart that is devoid of hate and irrational thoughts of rage, etc. then Heaven would be a place that I would hardly reach. Faith alone needs to be accompanied by having the qualities I described as they are representative of a model of living, not just mere qualities.

The first model of great qualities for the afterlife, in my opinion, comes from the Egyptian 42 commandments of Ma'at / The Goddess of Order and Justice and I cite them here:

1. I have not committed sin.
2. I have not committed robbery with violence.
3. I have not stolen
4. I have not slain men or women
5. I have not stolen food
6. I have not swindled offerings
7. I have not stolen from God / Goddess
8. I have not told lies
9. I have not carried away food
10. I have not cursed
11. I have not closed my ears to truth
12. I have not committed adultery
13. I have not made anyone cry
14. I have not felt sorrow without reason
15. I have not assaulted anyone
16. I am not deceitful
17. I have not stolen anyone's land
18. I have not been an eavesdropper
19. I have not falsely accused anyone
20. I have not been angry without reason
21. I have not seduced anyone's wife
22. I have not polluted myself
23. I have not terrorized anyone
24. I have not disobeyed the Law
25. I have not been exclusively angry
26. I have not cursed God / Goddess
27. I have not behaved with violence
28. I have not caused disruption of peace
29. I have not acted hastily or without thought
30. I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern
31. I have not exaggerated my words when speaking
32. I have not worked evil
33. I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds
34. I have not polluted the water
35. I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly
36. I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deeds
37. I have not placed myself on a pedestal
38. I have not stolen what belongs to God / Goddess
39. I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased
40. I have not taken food from a child
41. I have not acted with insolence
42. I have not destroyed property belongings to God / Goddes

Although the list of Laws is lengthy, it resembles the way one should behave to have a good life and enter Heaven: have a calm mind, a good and humble heart, avoid committing adultery, murder and other crimes / transgression, help others, avoid at all costs committing blasphemy.

Slightly different but very important to the topic we have the Ten Commandments of God:

1. I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me. (Note: this refers to addictions, vices and not Gods / Elohim)
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (Note: this is intended for not worshipping what is known as thoughtforms / mental projections of Ego or what our brain imagines for the moment)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain (basically related to not committing blasphemy)
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (That is the case for Hebrew people but you need to respect the days that are Holy based on your belief system as well as the Holy days of other belief systems)
5. Honor thy father and thy mother. (This refers both to the parents one has / had, and also the Cosmic / Esoteric aspects of the Divine Masculine and Divine Feminine)
6. Thou shalt not kill
7. Thouh shall not commit adultery
8. Thou shall not steal
9. Thou shall not bear false witness
10. Thou shall not covet (Rest of these 5 are deeply connected with the 42 Laws of Ma'at)

Now when it comes to Peter, the concept of Gate keeper is something that relates more than just the image of Peter, the Bearded Saint that guards the Pearly gates. Saint Peter is acting more as a Divine Judge in mainstream Christian tradition, but in apocryphal writings such as Apocalypse of Peter, we have St. Archangel Uriel standing as the Divine Judge at the pearly gates. This can be interpreted as Human (Peter) evolution through Higher Wisdom (Archangel Uriel). Achieving great spiritual evolution can help one live a good life and reach the Pearly Gates.

As for the Bible verse Matthew 16:18–19, it states specifically that in some way we are responsible for what we are doing in this life. This is also further acknowledged by other verses such as Galatians 6:7: "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap." The verses Matthew 16:18–19 also relates in my opinion to the Hermetic principle of vibration, whereby the power of our thoughts and words can shape the reality that we live in, of course, taking into consideration external factors that are not in our control.

 

[Eldros]

Well, entering Heaven is more than having faith in God. Faith without acts is something that is like fire without oxygen - it can't exist. Bible Verses for this are: James 2:17: "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead and James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

And now, what do I mean by faith... is not the exoteric view but rather the esoteric view. I for one am an Unitarian Universalist. My belief is based on a lot of teachings from Judaism and Christianity (all Abrahamic religions btw). Notice the connection? Abraham, the first prophet of God and then the two first major religions? I practice a lot of occultism and spiritual practices, each with their own views of the underworld, some even more complex than the idea of St. Peter guarding the gates of Heaven (thing itself which is more complex as well but more on that later on in this post).

If I don't help the poor, be kind, have a humble and honest heart that is devoid of hate and irrational thoughts of rage, etc. then Heaven would be a place that I would hardly reach. Faith alone needs to be accompanied by having the qualities I described as they are representative of a model of living, not just mere qualities.

The first model of great qualities for the afterlife, in my opinion, comes from the Egyptian 42 commandments of Ma'at / The Goddess of Order and Justice and I cite them here:

1. I have not committed sin.
2. I have not committed robbery with violence.
3. I have not stolen
4. I have not slain men or women
5. I have not stolen food
6. I have not swindled offerings
7. I have not stolen from God / Goddess
8. I have not told lies
9. I have not carried away food
10. I have not cursed
11. I have not closed my ears to truth
12. I have not committed adultery
13. I have not made anyone cry
14. I have not felt sorrow without reason
15. I have not assaulted anyone
16. I am not deceitful
17. I have not stolen anyone's land
18. I have not been an eavesdropper
19. I have not falsely accused anyone
20. I have not been angry without reason
21. I have not seduced anyone's wife
22. I have not polluted myself
23. I have not terrorized anyone
24. I have not disobeyed the Law
25. I have not been exclusively angry
26. I have not cursed God / Goddess
27. I have not behaved with violence
28. I have not caused disruption of peace
29. I have not acted hastily or without thought
30. I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern
31. I have not exaggerated my words when speaking
32. I have not worked evil
33. I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds
34. I have not polluted the water
35. I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly
36. I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deeds
37. I have not placed myself on a pedestal
38. I have not stolen what belongs to God / Goddess
39. I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased
40. I have not taken food from a child
41. I have not acted with insolence
42. I have not destroyed property belongings to God / Goddes

Although the list of Laws is lengthy, it resembles the way one should behave to have a good life and enter Heaven: have a calm mind, a good and humble heart, avoid committing adultery, murder and other crimes / transgression, help others, avoid at all costs committing blasphemy.

Slightly different but very important to the topic we have the Ten Commandments of God:

1. I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me. (Note: this refers to addictions, vices and not Gods / Elohim)
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (Note: this is intended for not worshipping what is known as thoughtforms / mental projections of Ego or what our brain imagines for the moment)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain (basically related to not committing blasphemy)
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (That is the case for Hebrew people but you need to respect the days that are Holy based on your belief system as well as the Holy days of other belief systems)
5. Honor thy father and thy mother. (This refers both to the parents one has / had, and also the Cosmic / Esoteric aspects of the Divine Masculine and Divine Feminine)
6. Thou shalt not kill
7. Thouh shall not commit adultery
8. Thou shall not steal
9. Thou shall not bear false witness
10. Thou shall not covet (Rest of these 5 are deeply connected with the 42 Laws of Ma'at)

Now when it comes to Peter, the concept of Gate keeper is something that relates more than just the image of Peter, the Bearded Saint that guards the Pearly gates. Saint Peter is acting more as a Divine Judge in mainstream Christian tradition, but in apocryphal writings such as Apocalypse of Peter, we have St. Archangel Uriel standing as the Divine Judge at the pearly gates. This can be interpreted as Human (Peter) evolution through Higher Wisdom (Archangel Uriel). Achieving great spiritual evolution can help one live a good life and reach the Pearly Gates.

As for the Bible verse Matthew 16:18–19, it states specifically that in some way we are responsible for what we are doing in this life. This is also further acknowledged by other verses such as Galatians 6:7: "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap." The verses Matthew 16:18–19 also relates in my opinion to the Hermetic principle of vibration, whereby the power of our thoughts and words can shape the reality that we live in, of course, taking into consideration external factors that are not in our control.

I really like the idea that faith has to show itself in how we live.
I don't think Saint Peter would just ask, “Did you believe in God?”
Maybe his question would be, “Who have you become because of your faith?”
After all, maybe it isn't about what we believed, but who our beliefs made us become...

 

[Pneuma_Purifier]

Humans by nature have bodies made of matter, so human afterlife must be a physical place as well. The only way you can resolve this is to employ the New Earth as the promised paradise and heaven as a sort of intersecting plane of "closeness to God".

What persists after death is non-physical consciousness (the soul). The Anima Mundi enables the direct experience of divine states, meaning Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven are real locations, not physical coordinates.

 

[Kepler]

Well, entering Heaven is more than having faith in God. Faith without acts is something that is like fire without oxygen - it can't exist. Bible Verses for this are: James 2:17: "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead and James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

And now, what do I mean by faith... is not the exoteric view but rather the esoteric view. I for one am an Unitarian Universalist. My belief is based on a lot of teachings from Judaism and Christianity (all Abrahamic religions btw). Notice the connection? Abraham, the first prophet of God and then the two first major religions? I practice a lot of occultism and spiritual practices, each with their own views of the underworld, some even more complex than the idea of St. Peter guarding the gates of Heaven (thing itself which is more complex as well but more on that later on in this post).

If I don't help the poor, be kind, have a humble and honest heart that is devoid of hate and irrational thoughts of rage, etc. then Heaven would be a place that I would hardly reach. Faith alone needs to be accompanied by having the qualities I described as they are representative of a model of living, not just mere qualities.

The first model of great qualities for the afterlife, in my opinion, comes from the Egyptian 42 commandments of Ma'at / The Goddess of Order and Justice and I cite them here:

1. I have not committed sin.
2. I have not committed robbery with violence.
3. I have not stolen
4. I have not slain men or women
5. I have not stolen food
6. I have not swindled offerings
7. I have not stolen from God / Goddess
8. I have not told lies
9. I have not carried away food
10. I have not cursed
11. I have not closed my ears to truth
12. I have not committed adultery
13. I have not made anyone cry
14. I have not felt sorrow without reason
15. I have not assaulted anyone
16. I am not deceitful
17. I have not stolen anyone's land
18. I have not been an eavesdropper
19. I have not falsely accused anyone
20. I have not been angry without reason
21. I have not seduced anyone's wife
22. I have not polluted myself
23. I have not terrorized anyone
24. I have not disobeyed the Law
25. I have not been exclusively angry
26. I have not cursed God / Goddess
27. I have not behaved with violence
28. I have not caused disruption of peace
29. I have not acted hastily or without thought
30. I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern
31. I have not exaggerated my words when speaking
32. I have not worked evil
33. I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds
34. I have not polluted the water
35. I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly
36. I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deeds
37. I have not placed myself on a pedestal
38. I have not stolen what belongs to God / Goddess
39. I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased
40. I have not taken food from a child
41. I have not acted with insolence
42. I have not destroyed property belongings to God / Goddes

Although the list of Laws is lengthy, it resembles the way one should behave to have a good life and enter Heaven: have a calm mind, a good and humble heart, avoid committing adultery, murder and other crimes / transgression, help others, avoid at all costs committing blasphemy.

Slightly different but very important to the topic we have the Ten Commandments of God:

1. I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me. (Note: this refers to addictions, vices and not Gods / Elohim)
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (Note: this is intended for not worshipping what is known as thoughtforms / mental projections of Ego or what our brain imagines for the moment)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain (basically related to not committing blasphemy)
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (That is the case for Hebrew people but you need to respect the days that are Holy based on your belief system as well as the Holy days of other belief systems)
5. Honor thy father and thy mother. (This refers both to the parents one has / had, and also the Cosmic / Esoteric aspects of the Divine Masculine and Divine Feminine)
6. Thou shalt not kill
7. Thouh shall not commit adultery
8. Thou shall not steal
9. Thou shall not bear false witness
10. Thou shall not covet (Rest of these 5 are deeply connected with the 42 Laws of Ma'at)

Now when it comes to Peter, the concept of Gate keeper is something that relates more than just the image of Peter, the Bearded Saint that guards the Pearly gates. Saint Peter is acting more as a Divine Judge in mainstream Christian tradition, but in apocryphal writings such as Apocalypse of Peter, we have St. Archangel Uriel standing as the Divine Judge at the pearly gates. This can be interpreted as Human (Peter) evolution through Higher Wisdom (Archangel Uriel). Achieving great spiritual evolution can help one live a good life and reach the Pearly Gates.

As for the Bible verse Matthew 16:18–19, it states specifically that in some way we are responsible for what we are doing in this life. This is also further acknowledged by other verses such as Galatians 6:7: "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap." The verses Matthew 16:18–19 also relates in my opinion to the Hermetic principle of vibration, whereby the power of our thoughts and words can shape the reality that we live in, of course, taking into consideration external factors that are not in our control.

Mapping behaviors that can objectively lead to positive sums, and more than survival, reduce suffering and contribute toward advancement of all can be secularly deduced. In a Hermetic sense, they show an alignment with the cosmos asymmetry that leads to continuation of species and life, including the individual.
Both lists are quite old and limited in what they could consider since general knowledge of physical sciences was more limited than now. But the isolated indication of immediate(meaning in sight of those humans directly) environmental concern with water pollution shows a nascence of environmental ethics.
Perhaps these lists were largely deduced by the living from observable positive benefits for everyone then codified within a spiritual structure to explain spiritual visions. Not delivered from a transcendent Deity, but secular ethics projected onto a framework of the cosmos developed to explain spiritual experiences. In those cases, an afterlife, projected onto that level of cosmic understanding.

Post automatically merged: Today at 1:50 PM

To elaborate further to include a sinful definition, those whose thinking leads always to zero sum don't benefit or increase value. They just take. If they don't get what they want in zero sum, they get irrational and angry, nihilist and want to negative sum since they don't win over someone else. This maps as an evolutionary dead end in an asymmetric model of the spiritual.

 

[Nembra]

What persists after death is non-physical consciousness (the soul). The Anima Mundi enables the direct experience of divine states, meaning Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven are real locations, not physical coordinates.

Then what persists is no longer human. As follows, that interpretation is in fundamental contradiction with Catholic theology, which is what I was clearly referring to.

 

[MorganBlack]

Pneuma_Purifier is speaking a Neoplatonis language, that we've established, sits in tension with the Magisterium as pantheism. But there are other issues.

Modern occultism, paganism try to scoop together a bunch of edge cases and make these little trifles into full religions. But all this lets call it poetic speculation is not meant to be a replacement faith, it more like trying to think about the chemical make-up of igneous rock or the air. For the Catholic minded It becomes only issue if it is used to erase the Magisterium. (Which to be fair most of modern occult esoteric tries to auto-delete God). I think the main sin of estericism is a venial one. It make our souls smaller through encouraging scrupulosity - as a kind of scheming and opportunism. I have done this myself, so I cast no stones.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:12 PM

Crap, please allow me rephrase this in more official Catholic language .

Within Catholicism there is space for what Catholic theologians call theologoumena - which are theological statements or concepts that lack absolute doctrinal authority because they are not directly derived from divine revelation or officially endorsed by the Magisterium. They are not dogmas, but they are considered "worth recommending because they cast light on understanding doctrines that are considered to be divinely revealed."

The Catechism allows this: even though public Revelation is complete in Christ, "it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries" (CCC 66).

And we would know far less about Neoplatonism and Hermeticism were it not for the late medieval and early modern Italian Catholic milieux that loved them enough to translate and preserve them.

Marsilio Ficino's Latin translation of the Corpus Hermeticum, for example, was undertaken at the request of Cosimo de' Medici and supported by figures within the ecclesiastical establishment. Pico della Mirandola drew on Neoplatonic and Hermetic sources with papal patronage and protection. This means that the esoteric and Neoplatonic inheritance is not simply an external import into Catholicism; it was, in significant part, transmitted through Catholic institutions and patronage.

If the Church herself helped preserve and translate these texts, then using them as theologoumena is not a betrayal of Catholic tradition but a continuation of a conversation that Catholic patrons and thinkers themselves made possible.

Hermetic, Neoplatonic, and nondual readings of Christianity function as theologoumena. They are a speculative metaphysical lens which we can use to interpret acramental and doctrinal structure. As long as we do not claim that this lens is itself the deposit of faith - that it is necessary for salvation or that it corrects the Church's definitive teaching then were operating within a legitimate Catholic theological pluralism.

There is no valid argument to reject Mexican Catholicism, a syncretism of Nahua indigenous spirituality. The Church's own" inculturation" (sorry I had to look it up. ) theology permits the baptism of non-Christian forms. If Nahua and Hawaiian Catholics can integrate traditional practices without ceasing to be Catholic, then I think we can argue Hemetic, Neoplatonis, and Anglo-Esoteric Catholics formed by Western esotericism can do the same.

I just call this Folk Catholic to air gap it a bit from the Magisterium and the Vatican Church and preservers of the faith.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:18 PM

Er.
I just call this "Folk Catholic" to air gap it a bit from the Magisterium and the Vatican Church AS preservers of the faith. And "Folk Catholic" is an academic term. All "Folk Catholics" I know are just Catholic.

 

[HoldAll]

Have sex only for procreational purposes, don't masturbate even once, and you'll be fine.