Where Gods come from; or, The advantages of ejecting religion from one's praxis

[Beyond Everything]

That is exactly what it describes. Do you "manifest" or "attract" results through visualization and intent while retaining everyday, waking consciousness? Perhaps you are not familiar with the meditative practices of the yogis--that's okay.

That's simply false. It details devotion to an egregore (Krishna). Relaxing before visualizing a result you want is not the same thing, nor is attracting what you want the same as being promised success in all your actions. Youre conflating things and ignoring the stipulation I made- a text describing using visualization only in order to attract desirable circumstances. Such a text does not exist, and that is telling in and of itself.

Im not opening any doors - for you. Perhaps someone else might get something out of it. Perhaps not. I don't type things Ive simply read, however.

 

[silencewaits]

That's simply false. It details devotion to an egregore (Krishna). Relaxing before visualizing a result you want is not the same thing, nor is attracting what you want the same as being promised success in all your actions. Youre conflating things and ignoring the stipulation I made- a text describing using visualization only in order to attract desirable circumstances. Such a text does not exist, and that is telling in and of itself.

Have you considered that there is an exoteric and esoteric interpretation of the text? Who is Krishna, and why is he, being representative of the eternal and formless Absolute, relevant? How would a yogi interpret that text, versus someone who simply worshiped him? What can you learn from that? Besides, a lot of 'manifestation' is hokey bullshit. If you center yourself firmly upon a goal, intensely meditate on it, and work towards it with determination--something may happen. That's basic magic. Is what is described not the same process? Simply visualizing something does not make it more likely to happen, there is more to the process. Furthermore, Krishna is not an egregore. I have already defined what an egregore is. I don't believe he, or any other god, exists--but he can be useful as a symbol. You can read texts he is included in and gain something.

Im not opening any doors - for you. Perhaps someone else might get something out of it. Perhaps not. I don't type things Ive simply read, however.

You speak a lot of immortality, and use nice words, but you have yet to detail this process of ascension. Have you undergone this process?

 

[Beyond Everything]

Besides, a lot of 'manifestation' is hokey bullshit. If you center yourself firmly upon a goal, intensely meditate on it, and work towards it with determination--something may happen. That's basic magic. Is what is described not the same process? Simply visualizing something does not make it more likely to happen, there is more to the process. Furthermore, Krishna is not an egregore. I have already defined what an egregore is. I don't believe he, or any other god, exists--but he can be useful as a symbol. You can read texts he is included in and gain something.

So is manifestation bullshit, or is it something that text talked about?

'Something may happen'. Look, I can tell right away you lack experience in this area, because experienced people KNOW that it is possible to visualize things and for them to come to pass- including without doing any mundane work for them. In other words, it can function not merely as a motivational took but actually alters reality. I'd personally consider experience with this a prerequisite for even calling one's self an occultist. It is a basic capability of being human.

You speak a lot of immortality, and use nice words, but you have yet to detail this process of ascension. Have you undergone this process?

Nice words? I think these areas are very difficult to circumscribe with language. As I said- I'm just opening the door a tiny bit, for someone who is ready.

As far as ascension, I'd first work on getting experience with manifesting, as you clearly have no clue what is possible as a human.

 

[Savodonger]

I can tell you the way I was taught we ascend as spiritual beings but surrounded by two very intellectual people here, I guess you would find my explanations a-little infantile to say the least. Or am I drifting off topic?

 

[Beyond Everything]

I can tell you the way I was taught we ascend as spiritual beings but surrounded by two very intellectual people here, I guess you would find my explanations a-little infantile to say the least. Or am I drifting off topic?

I certainly wouldn't consider myself 'very intellectual', but I do have experiences to draw upon for my views.

Anyway, I see no reason not to give your perspective on it.

 

[Kepler]

This seems to me a development in understanding the underlying principles of syncretism with its resurgence.

Terminology, philosophy, hyperphysics are still very nascent.

For me there is a distinction between egregores created by biological life and those created at the formation of the Universe in a hylozoic model. With it a philosophy for the former as a self-determining response of natural selection to the latter can be made.

Bios egregores developed from observed discrete aspects of Creation(spacetime/matterenergy) as communicated to the layers of the cosmic mind(Earth/Sol/Sgr A*/...?) across the universe. Forming them in a co-creative hyperspatial reality from the same matter energy that is being observed and creating bios responses. Life creating life.
Calendars, and later decans. Civil development. Egregores are the ladder to ascendency.

For immortality, in a simple sense, in the model they hold us in their minds and we reincarnate from them. For a pop culture reference, The World Between Worlds in Ahsoka gives a fair superficial idea, as well as implication in how it can bridge worlds ala SMI2LE.

 

[PinealisGlandia]

The modern gods aren't called gods at all, but they're egregores and they guide human consciousness. How often do we hear or say "America's foreign policy" or "Russia's politics" or "conservative ideology"? These ("America", "Russia", "conservatives") are all egregores, and considering that most people aren't actually very religious, even if they claim a religious affiliation, these egregores have more bearing on day to day life than any egregore of a deity. I hope this "national identities are egregores" line of reasoning is self-edifying; there is no person you can go to and call "America", but America does have desires, and those desires are an aggregate of the desires of those who identify and are identified as American. It wouldn't be inaccurate to say that the "pantheon" I use in my practice essentially consists of the UN and the political parties of its constituents, though I wouldn't usually choose that verbiage.

When you realize that just as "Zeus" is empowered by burning incense in devotion to him, the "Grand Old Party" is empowered by mentioning its name (must I add "be it positively or negatively"? energy is energy at that level and an egregore uses it all), it opens up a whole new way of interfacing with reality. Would you believe, both political parties in the US implement policies that benefit me? Pretty much exclusively to my benefit too. I'm fully aware of all of the very real conspiracies by our government, yet even the ones that have potentially touched me, I reap no ill consequence for. Because I work with my government as an entity, not by making an altar to it, but by thinking of it as a living thing that I need be symbiotic with, because I live within its borders.

 

[Beyond Everything]

these egregores have more bearing on day to day life than any egregore of a deity.

I wasn't really speaking so much of day to day life, but the unrecognized problems inherent in a spiritual quest.

However, I don't think it's so easy to disentangle secular vs religious egregores. There's plenty of christian egregores worming their way into American politics. Stability of many parts of the ideology isn't a prerequisite- again, American politics furnishes plenty of examples.

 

[Audiolog Edu]

One cognitive feature of humans has been called Hyperactive Agency Detection. This is the automatic attribution of intention to phenomena. Studies have demonstrated that this begins in early childhood.

Mankind is approx 300,000 years old (and that is not even considering pre-humans). Innate psychic/magick abilities helped the species survive and eventually thrive. One should keep in mind this length of pre-history.

In attributing natural occurrences to supernatural entities, the ground was set to create supernatural entities - egregores.

Egregores have many peculiarities, one of which is a that in their creation, there was a kind of funhouse, distorted reflection of the complex of human cognitive quirks and instincts. In terms of our material reality, egregores can sway events and bring results desired.

What egregores can also do is induce in the human under their influence experiences labeled as divine. The picture is further complicated because the human brain also naturally can induce what are labeled as mystical experiences (a tab of LSD demonstrates this aptly).

Egregores are a limiting factor towards the individuals attainment of ascension/immortality.

Many people utilize egregores in their personal workings and practices, oblivious to the fact that they are essentially being misled and led away from the real path, which is highly individual. We can examine people utilizing, for instance, Christian energies in their works, all the while pretending the 2000 years of Christian oppression of esoteric practices has no relation whatsoever to what theyre doing. In connecting to god, or gods, or spirits, or Buddhas, what is at work is simply the engagement of an egregore -some long-standing-.

These egregores inhibit both the interaction with actual higher dimensions, as well as the transformational process that leads to personal immortality as a power unto one's self.

According to a book I studied this "Gods" are emanations from the Divine, also called Archetypes, and in the material world they aquired physical forms, because they are abstract in the Spiritual World, but the symbols they aquire in this Material World help us to connect with this "Gods" or Archetypal Energies which are in our psyche and also in the kosmos.
I am just a begginer practicioner.

 

[PinealisGlandia]

I wasn't really speaking so much of day to day life, but the unrecognized problems inherent in a spiritual quest.

However, I don't think it's so easy to disentangle secular vs religious egregores. There's plenty of christian egregores worming their way into American politics. Stability of many parts of the ideology isn't a prerequisite- again, American politics furnishes plenty of examples.

You distinguish the religious element from the rest the same way you know which part of your body is your bones without doing any self-surgery. Separating them seems unnecessary. Religion has comingled with the state since before the Roman empire. The cultural essence of a society includes its religious and political debate.

 

[MorganBlack]

My point is that you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even just interacting with the same egregore through a magickal system vs a religious system is completely different.

Nicely said. As my hougan taught me, Vodou recognizes "Power is Power." And there are many kinds. Vodou has no problem interacting with the patterns / mythstream / egregore / whatever of the Catholic Church. He did say for a small time after attending Mass will make performing wrathful sorcery very difficult, but otherwise there are no longer-term lingering effects. To use D&D terms: Lawful Good, you've been swimming in it.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Nicely said. As my hougan taught me, Vodou recognizes "Power is Power." And there are many kinds. Vodou has no problem interacting with the patterns / mythstream / egregore / whatever of the Catholic Church. He did say for a small time after attending Mass will make performing wrathful sorcery very difficult, but otherwise there are no longer-term lingering effects. To use D&D terms: Lawful Good, you've been swimming in it.

This isn't quite applicable, because neither of those religions even theoretically present a path to the highest development. For Catholicism, it's basically be a good sheep and you passively go to heaven, and stay there. Vodou it's an ancestral path (with a few humans said to somehow become Lwa). Neither contemplates transforming/ascending into a higher subtle body (which certainly has no need of sacrifices). So, to put it bluntly- neither are as ambitious as those seeking the highest, and thus the dogmas and statements of those within them are inapplicable here, ie I stipulated egregores can cause magical effects.

One characteristic of egregores is that those under their sway rarely deeply question the limited parameters they are existing within.

 

[MorganBlack]

Ah, I might see the issue, Beyond Everything.

While your personal cosmology is a oriented differently from my own, I am enough of a Theravada Buddhist to applaud your effort to get past the Sublunar visions, all the astral flux and noise, the laser light show. I sometimes call it The Circus. It's also the Tarot card The Moon. And I agree people often get stuck there, wrapped in dreams

However, in my view, we do not actually need to transcend anything. We are not humans having a spiritual experience, we are already spiritual beings having a human experience. No need to seek the Exit sign from the World prematurely by rising above it all.

There is no required "higher development", there is only more self-coherency, more consciousness, and more joy. And you can do that by seeking the "higher" until you burn away everything that is not your singular vision of Self - or - you can throw yourself into the sublunar world, experience all it's complexity, until you recognize the Self in the noise.

Most of those very (overly?) flavorful practices, like NeoPlatonic Thergy, Tantra, and Catholic Mysticism (not the standard issue Catholicism, like the nasty Irish pray, pay and obey version ) can be usefully seen as emotional imagery and foci to train your subconsious and rewire a dysfunctional animal self / Nephesh with something more supportive. If you don't like them, and find the dead, and the daimons too colorful- you can take up Zen. When mediating tell the daimons and visions to fuck off.

 

[Beyond Everything]

However, in my view, we do not actually need to transcend anything. We are not humans having a spiritual experience, we are already spiritual beings having a human experience.

If you're already satisfied, then what Im talking about isn't for you

I find the 'spiritual beings having a human experience' is a bit platitudinous. We are primates with certain inborn abilities and certain potentialities, the latter's fulfillment is not a given but must be exploited in this life- while in the flesh- in order to attain the highest state possible post-mortem.

 

[MorganBlack]

It would be a platitude, if I was trying to explain reality - with "reasons" - rather than what I was actually doing, which was attempting to describe my observations. I accept responsibility for my own failure to communicate. Carry on.

 

[Beyond Everything]

It would be a platitude, if I was trying to explain reality - with "reasons" - rather than what I was actually doing, which was attempting to describe my observations. I accept responsibility for my own failure to communicate. Carry on.

No big deal. I was just trying to emphasize something.

 

[aviaf]

Interesting angle, but it comes across a bit like “if you can’t drive, better ban all cars.” Sure, egregores can trap the naïve, but to call them only prisons feels like admitting you don’t know how to handle them.
Magicians who know what they’re doing can put on a godform like a mask, ride the current, and step away untouched. To reject them wholesale isn’t liberation—it’s self-imposed poverty of technique.

If the real path is “highly individual,” then why close off an entire set of tools? Unless, of course, one isn’t confident enough to use them without being consumed.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Interesting angle, but it comes across a bit like “if you can’t drive, better ban all cars.” Sure, egregores can trap the naïve, but to call them only prisons feels like admitting you don’t know how to handle them.
Magicians who know what they’re doing can put on a godform like a mask, ride the current, and step away untouched. To reject them wholesale isn’t liberation—it’s self-imposed poverty of technique.

If the real path is “highly individual,” then why close off an entire set of tools? Unless, of course, one isn’t confident enough to use them without being consumed.

I think the paucity of occultists who have achieved ascended immortality speaks for itself.

.Just because you're not consumed doesnt mean you aren't influenced.

And I don't see what spectacular results all the GD derived groups are achieving. Not at all.

 

[MorganBlack]

There is no way prove it here, so pardon the pointed statement:

We're already immortal beings. Always have been. So the good news is the job's mostly done, but there's a snag, which echoed down the ages, snowballed, and taken on an outsized importance.

The Orphic teachings, like those in the Derveni Papyrus, recommend preparation for the soul's journey through the post-mortem experience by practicing detachment from negative emotions (called 'the Passions' in Catholic Mysticism, or 'the Archons' in the stellar mysticism of Gnosticism), and thereby encouraging our soul to become light and calm, so you become like fire and air and ascend, rather than heavy, like earth and water.

The idea is not sink into Tartarus (their name for the unpleasant region of the afterlife, but there are others), but rise into the pleasant parts. In the Egyptian myths we see the same story, when your heart is weighed on the scale of Maat, with Apep snapping down below.

For a dramatic presentation of what being stuck in a Purgatory-of-your-own-making looks like, I recommend watching the 2001 film The Others, with Nicole Kidman. Hell, it's a state of mind

In practice this is less about becoming a Supreme 20th Lvl. Super Saiyan and more about becoming comfortable in your own skin, forgiving of others, letting go of bitterness and resentment, so you are not weighed down once you are bereft of your rational brain after you die.

None of this is very different from what Buddhist and Catholic mystical practices do, to cleanse thoughts of excessive grasping of earthly attachments, to become calm, kind, and loving - rather than die being a miserable bastard and sink, maybe, into your own Buddhist Hell.

 

[PinealisGlandia]

There is no way prove it here

I think there is a way to prove it here, to a degree. Some of us (myself included) have been practicing since our teens and are at a place in our development that people twice our age haven't reached. I think that kind of accelerated development attests to an immortal soul of some sort and a place along the reincarnation track.