DISCUSSION: Do Gods Need Us?

[The God-King]

Thank you the God-King that makes sense.
My upbringing in Christianity was orthodox reformed with no allowing of saints, let alone pictures, shrines offerings etc. Taking of the bread and wine for example was not done and seen as blasphemy. So it has taken me a while to come to terms with veneration.

For me, worship expresses itself by living as close to Truth as i possibly can. This is ever evolving and ive found that in order to get things moving, i need to be this way. When im not in line with this way of being i struggle with everything. So i need to worship. Since life still continues when im not inline, i have to say that the One i worship doesnt need it.

Veneration in terms of deep respect, makes sense and for me comes down to a conversation on energy level. Both me and the revered one(s) need it.

Veneration in the sense of external offerings, i still cant get my head around, so i dont do that. Other then when i give alms i also give to spirits of the place im at. ie, i leave food for them as well. To me this is more like a thank you after working together/they let me do my thing in their realm. Or is this what is ment by veneration???

Very interesting! I've never heard of Reformed Orthodox. A quick off topic question if the mods don't mind; are there any Church Fathers Reformed Orthodox believers agree with?

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

Thank you for this. I would agree with this view for the most part. In your model, how does it view fictitious beings such as characters in tv/films, books, comics, etc? Would there be an ontological basis for, say, the fictitious deity Shehanine? If they receive enough respect or worship, could they be considered a legit deity and would they need this worship or respect to remain in this position? Love your posts around the fourm!

Thanks! Fictitious is a tricky topic. I e come to see reality in scales, tiers, rather than objectivity. There are worlds more real than the one people think they know. There are worlds less real. I'm not comfortable saying a world doesn't exist in any form.

Why? The psychic realm. Everything in it exists in or between minds. With little or no reflection on the sensory or physical. If you make up a world right now, and ask me if it is real or fake, there exists some shadow of it in your portion of the psychic realm. The setting of avatar the last airbender exists among the minds of every writer on that project, and everyone who watched an episode of the show. If I tried to go there, I don't know how well it would respond to interaction. Or if it would have any properties outside the mental.

Sad as it is, two girls once attempted a real sacrifice to appease a patently fictional being. And I'm sure that wasn't the first time that has happened.

The crux of your question, though, is whether shehanine is a "legit" deity. Because my only working model of a god is "they are worshiped because of reasons the follower believes in" they are a legit god when they have one real follower. But that's all my definition implies. I'm not saying the being is strong or what they can do, because that's not part of my definition.

 

[Scottish_Pride]

I feel like they definitely benefit from what they get from us, but may not necessarily need it. If other types of spirits can get along without a living human's attention, why not?

 

[Scottish_Pride]

Sad as it is, two girls once attempted a real sacrifice to appease a patently fictional being. And I'm sure that wasn't the first time that has happened.

You talking about the Slenderman incident? Yeah, I remember that. Basically roiled the whole country when it happened, and it's sad those kids were so desperate to believe something that they were willing to kill for it. Pretty much have thrown their lives away now.

 

[Scottish_Pride]

Thanks! Fictitious is a tricky topic. I e come to see reality in scales, tiers, rather than objectivity. There are worlds more real than the one people think they know. There are worlds less real. I'm not comfortable saying a world doesn't exist in any form.

Why? The psychic realm. Everything in it exists in or between minds. With little or no reflection on the sensory or physical. If you make up a world right now, and ask me if it is real or fake, there exists some shadow of it in your portion of the psychic realm. The setting of avatar the last airbender exists among the minds of every writer on that project, and everyone who watched an episode of the show. If I tried to go there, I don't know how well it would respond to interaction. Or if it would have any properties outside the mental.

Apparently there's now this weird internet subcommunity of people who call themselves "reality shifters". It's a bunch of people who are straight-up claiming/trying to project themselves into fictional worlds. Not just the world itself, but then going on to try and interact with the main characters. Basically an attempt to live out their own nerd fantasies, whether real or not.

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

You talking about the Slenderman incident? Yeah, I remember that. Basically roiled the whole country when it happened, and it's sad those kids were so desperate to believe something that they were willing to kill for it. Pretty much have thrown their lives away now.

Why couldn't they have sacrificed to barney, peppa pig, or spongebob, though? Of all the things they had to feed spiritual energy, they had to go for slenderman. Thanks, girls. That's what I want rolling around in the realm of possibility. -eye roll-

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

Apparently there's now this weird internet subcommunity of people who call themselves "reality shifters". It's a bunch of people who are straight-up claiming/trying to project themselves into fictional worlds. Not just the world itself, but then going on to try and interact with the main characters. Basically an attempt to live out their own nerd fantasies, whether real or not.

That came to mind as I was typing. I myself am not part of that community, and am largely a denier. There's key words in what they say that help me know if they're legit, or a crock. For one, some of them claim to go to that world physically. That's a no. The general talk about being able to live in those worlds for a long time and interact with familiar characters in a favorable way is also suspect. Their assertion that shifting is not some form of astral projection or lucid dreaming only shoots their credibility in the foot.

The psychic realm is a realm where it is easier to believe what you're seeing isn't real. To make any of it even slightly tangible takes extreme discipline. For a moment of time. The idea that a bunch of randos could dig into their inner world and tangibly manifest a fictional setting for months is preposterous. I've had dreams far more convincing than any psychic journey I took awake.

What I suspect of the serious shifters, if there are any, is that they are either performing cognitive backflips to make themselves believe a false memory, or they are being messed with by very powerful spirits. Fae, I suspect.

 

[Lyssia]

Well, here's the thing. I have to agree with Walker, if I understand the above right, that essentially the definition of a "god" rests in their relationship with humans; which is to say, there's no fundamental difference between a god and any other spirit beyond the way humans interact and perceive that spirit. With or without that spirit's active encouragement.

But I also think, again, just as my own opinion from my own experiences, that spirits in general don't often get a lot of credit from us humans for being at least as smart, adaptable, and as much individual people as we are. If a spirit has hung around long enough to be a god and made it this far, I'm betting that spirit is quite capable of defining and presenting themselves in more modern forms that are more understandable to modern people. So, are fictional characters real spirits? I write fiction, and I will say, there's a strong difference between writing a character and working with a spirit. On the other hand, I've written novels with characters that were strongly based off of the initial dream contact a spirit made with me. In the same breath, if a fictional character is more accessible to a modern human a spirit wants a relationship with, I don't have any doubt that spirit will present itself in that form. (And probably, not only gods. In the parts of the world where ancestor veneration is rejected, I imagine a creative and determined ancestor might do the same thing.) Frankly, that's where "real" not only gets tricky, but is usually badly defined, especially in occult work.

I will differ with Walker regarding the "reality" of fictional worlds. In my experience, they're not simply "real" for their writers, they are very much "real" for their readers/watchers - sometimes more so, the sane writer draws lines in their minds and lives differentiating their fact from their fantasy, and audience often doesn't. Slenderman was already in the realm of possibility the moment it was created and released, though certainly the feeding of spiritual energy must have made him stronger. But the very answer to your question, I suspect, as to why Slenderman instead of PeppaPig lies in the power of the storytelling around him. Storytelling is an INCREDIABLY powerful occult tool.

 

[SkullTraill]

I guess for me the 2 ideologies I entertain are:

1. All gods/spirits/dieties are eternal thought forms, but vary from barely existing to extremely powerful and reality-altering based off of the power that humans/sapient beings attribute to them/believe they have.
2. Same as above, but not eternal, and are created/destroyed through belief in them

The greatest power I have felt/experienced is from sapient will, perhaps to some extent sentient will. I don't see any diety/god/spirit as physical in any way, which is why I don't believe in their power to directly and physically alter the world (at least not anymore). And aside from potentially a creator, I believe that all sorts of spirits thrive off human thoughts, be that desire, will, lust, wrath or just plain faith.

Obviously my thoughts are more complex and conflicted than I can describe in a short post. I might elaborate if I can find the time to sit down and write a long post.

 

[The God-King]

Thanks! Fictitious is a tricky topic. I e come to see reality in scales, tiers, rather than objectivity. There are worlds more real than the one people think they know. There are worlds less real. I'm not comfortable saying a world doesn't exist in any form.

Why? The psychic realm. Everything in it exists in or between minds. With little or no reflection on the sensory or physical. If you make up a world right now, and ask me if it is real or fake, there exists some shadow of it in your portion of the psychic realm. The setting of avatar the last airbender exists among the minds of every writer on that project, and everyone who watched an episode of the show. If I tried to go there, I don't know how well it would respond to interaction. Or if it would have any properties outside the mental.

Sad as it is, two girls once attempted a real sacrifice to appease a patently fictional being. And I'm sure that wasn't the first time that has happened.

The crux of your question, though, is whether shehanine is a "legit" deity. Because my only working model of a god is "they are worshiped because of reasons the follower believes in" they are a legit god when they have one real follower. But that's all my definition implies. I'm not saying the being is strong or what they can do, because that's not part of my definition.

Reflects much of my own beliefs, was not expecting that. Thanks for sharing!

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

Reflects much of my own beliefs, was not expecting that. Thanks for sharing!

I'll break it down more fully on my personal thread about energy work.

 

[Lmrb19]

I consider myself a rather new eclectic or idiosyncratic practitioner…of, I guess, Chaos Magicks as I recall from a recent post.

I believe we were created to worship, if not love, Gods and others we venerate or create a relationship; however, we, ourselves, have to, in a sense, become worthy of them by bettering or improving ourselves. Why spend time with uneducated children when you can spend time with someone closer to your level? They come in because we have, potentially, peaked their curiosity and/or they see something in us.

Do they need us? I don’t think so since they existed, more than likely, before us and will continue afterwards too.

Do they want it? Yes, of course. Who does not want attention, veneration, and appreciation (worship)? Humans are different, special even depending on your background and/or beliefs.

Why? I don’t know but that’s my two cents so far.

 

[Roma]

It rather depends on what is meant by a god. The gods of the Old Testament were very large and very hungry.

For example "And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:

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‘Sanctify unto Me all the first-born, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast, it is Mine.’ "

These days some of actions of the humanoid gods of the OT are regarded as crimes against humanity - but the gods bred the humans as slaves so I suppose many of them do not think in those terms.

The terms "gods" is also used for some devas (shining beings) e.g. the god of the south pacific

The being that uses the Earth's mineral kingdom as its body of manifestation is another such deva god.

Then there are egregors that can be treated as gods and energised as such by their group.

There are great beings (logoi) that use planets and solar systems as a body of manifestation and they are properly called gods by humans. The logos of this solar system is a god of love - at this stage of unfoldment.

Beyond the solar system can be found yet greater entities that humanity struggles to name. Attempts include "the great architect of the universe", "the cosmic christ", "the source of all", tzimtzum, "the great mother"

 

[Yazata]

A thought I had on this topic is what kind of worship or honoring exactly is meant. When I see a video of a beautiful girl talking about how Astarte made her a queen of seduction, or a video of a big guy with a thundering voice saying how Belial gave him the power to dominate in conversation, I know there are herds of not so pretty girls and not so alpha male guys that think they need to worship these gods with blood, sacrifice, or whatever and that then they'll turn into what they saw on YouTube.
But why would a spirit who is all about freedom, strength, self worth etc want you to submit to him. In my opinion you honour them and give them energy by being like them, as best as you can. Hard as that may be.
Which leads me to wonder if there is a kind of imposter spirit that benefits from the worship these YouTube followers etc give.

 

[SkullTraill]

Which leads me to wonder if there is a kind of imposter spirit that benefits from the worship these YouTube followers etc give.

Of course, there are plenty of malicious, leech, imposter spirits and that's why you always take the proper steps to banish and verify the identity of the spirit you are interacting with is legit.

@The God-King any specifics you wanna add?

 

[Yazata]

I banish all the time

 

[Mider2009]

I don’t think so, many pages are worshipping the same gods they have thousands of years ago, they’re still gods and powerful even though the many religions are greatly reduced, Hacate, Zeus, etc

imo they like our veneration and energy but it’s not needed.

 

[Mider2009]

I don’t think so, many pages are worshipping the same gods they have thousands of years ago, they’re still gods and powerful even though the many religions are greatly reduced, Hacate, Zeus, etc

imo they like our veneration and energy but it’s not needed.

People not pages

i also think many of these gods may take other forms, who knows maybe the Greek gods somehow are part of the Christian church...the church made saints of many gods and is said to have assimilated aspects of the cult of Sol Invictus

So maybe they just take different forms.

 

[Jastiv]

I believe the gods are also parts of ourselves, they are both internal and external, with some overlap, so the idea of do they need us, becomes a question then of do we need ourselves?

 

[Saint]

I'd like to get everyone's stance on this so I'll expound further: do gods or any other spirit that receives worship or veneration need us to continue to worship and venerate them? Or can they survive and perhaps even thrive without us giving them energy?

Let's discuss!

I'd say yes they would survive, and without any struggle.

What humans are often forget is that we are also just manifested souls on the physical plane, on the third dimension. Our soul neither need attention to "survive", because we and they are also exist as a transcendental being, however manifesting on different levels of dimension and their souls as well. Which means, that getting enough energy to manifest themselves on other planes and realms may require energy, a kind of fuel but they have many way to acquire this - on different dimensions too -, and grow so thinking that we are a "must" for any ancient being is not really a wise thought.
To manifest themselves, however it is important to have channels, pillars on the actual realm they mean to reach, which are non else but the already physically manifested souls themselves. It is the most simple and energy-saver way to reach the realm for everyone.

Of course, we can be a good source of energy, and we keep feeding other beings with our attention, love, affection and actually create new life (this is a part of our God-like nature, creating, we are also creators originally).

Nowadays many once-beloved deities are getting less and less attention, love and devotion, while feeding and forming new beings to worship, for instance, fictional characters, and some of them are actually getting the true love, even obsession of millions and millions, and this love manifesting itself in a form of art (writing, painting, digital painting, cosplaying etc.). Internet, social media makes this even more intense and made it spread even more fast, to reach more people.
Actually, the Pop Culture magic, which is a type of Chaos Magic actually working with these newly formed beings (and interestingly, some older deity actually made it's way back to our memory via Pop Culture).​