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DISCUSSION: Do Gods Need Us?

The God-King

The Mystical Rebel
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Thank you the God-King that makes sense.
My upbringing in Christianity was orthodox reformed with no allowing of saints, let alone pictures, shrines offerings etc. Taking of the bread and wine for example was not done and seen as blasphemy. So it has taken me a while to come to terms with veneration.

For me, worship expresses itself by living as close to Truth as i possibly can. This is ever evolving and ive found that in order to get things moving, i need to be this way. When im not in line with this way of being i struggle with everything. So i need to worship. Since life still continues when im not inline, i have to say that the One i worship doesnt need it.

Veneration in terms of deep respect, makes sense and for me comes down to a conversation on energy level. Both me and the revered one(s) need it.

Veneration in the sense of external offerings, i still cant get my head around, so i dont do that. Other then when i give alms i also give to spirits of the place im at. ie, i leave food for them as well. To me this is more like a thank you after working together/they let me do my thing in their realm. Or is this what is ment by veneration???
Very interesting! I've never heard of Reformed Orthodox. A quick off topic question if the mods don't mind; are there any Church Fathers Reformed Orthodox believers agree with?
 

WalkerOfSorrow

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Thank you for this. I would agree with this view for the most part. In your model, how does it view fictitious beings such as characters in tv/films, books, comics, etc? Would there be an ontological basis for, say, the fictitious deity Shehanine? If they receive enough respect or worship, could they be considered a legit deity and would they need this worship or respect to remain in this position? Love your posts around the fourm!
Thanks! Fictitious is a tricky topic. I e come to see reality in scales, tiers, rather than objectivity. There are worlds more real than the one people think they know. There are worlds less real. I'm not comfortable saying a world doesn't exist in any form.

Why? The psychic realm. Everything in it exists in or between minds. With little or no reflection on the sensory or physical. If you make up a world right now, and ask me if it is real or fake, there exists some shadow of it in your portion of the psychic realm. The setting of avatar the last airbender exists among the minds of every writer on that project, and everyone who watched an episode of the show. If I tried to go there, I don't know how well it would respond to interaction. Or if it would have any properties outside the mental.

Sad as it is, two girls once attempted a real sacrifice to appease a patently fictional being. And I'm sure that wasn't the first time that has happened.

The crux of your question, though, is whether shehanine is a "legit" deity. Because my only working model of a god is "they are worshiped because of reasons the follower believes in" they are a legit god when they have one real follower. But that's all my definition implies. I'm not saying the being is strong or what they can do, because that's not part of my definition.
 

Scottish_Pride

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I feel like they definitely benefit from what they get from us, but may not necessarily need it. If other types of spirits can get along without a living human's attention, why not?
 

Scottish_Pride

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Sad as it is, two girls once attempted a real sacrifice to appease a patently fictional being. And I'm sure that wasn't the first time that has happened.
You talking about the Slenderman incident? Yeah, I remember that. Basically roiled the whole country when it happened, and it's sad those kids were so desperate to believe something that they were willing to kill for it. Pretty much have thrown their lives away now.
 

Scottish_Pride

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Thanks! Fictitious is a tricky topic. I e come to see reality in scales, tiers, rather than objectivity. There are worlds more real than the one people think they know. There are worlds less real. I'm not comfortable saying a world doesn't exist in any form.

Why? The psychic realm. Everything in it exists in or between minds. With little or no reflection on the sensory or physical. If you make up a world right now, and ask me if it is real or fake, there exists some shadow of it in your portion of the psychic realm. The setting of avatar the last airbender exists among the minds of every writer on that project, and everyone who watched an episode of the show. If I tried to go there, I don't know how well it would respond to interaction. Or if it would have any properties outside the mental.
Apparently there's now this weird internet subcommunity of people who call themselves "reality shifters". It's a bunch of people who are straight-up claiming/trying to project themselves into fictional worlds. Not just the world itself, but then going on to try and interact with the main characters. Basically an attempt to live out their own nerd fantasies, whether real or not.
 

WalkerOfSorrow

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You talking about the Slenderman incident? Yeah, I remember that. Basically roiled the whole country when it happened, and it's sad those kids were so desperate to believe something that they were willing to kill for it. Pretty much have thrown their lives away now.
Why couldn't they have sacrificed to barney, peppa pig, or spongebob, though? Of all the things they had to feed spiritual energy, they had to go for slenderman. Thanks, girls. That's what I want rolling around in the realm of possibility. -eye roll-
 

WalkerOfSorrow

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Apparently there's now this weird internet subcommunity of people who call themselves "reality shifters". It's a bunch of people who are straight-up claiming/trying to project themselves into fictional worlds. Not just the world itself, but then going on to try and interact with the main characters. Basically an attempt to live out their own nerd fantasies, whether real or not.
That came to mind as I was typing. I myself am not part of that community, and am largely a denier. There's key words in what they say that help me know if they're legit, or a crock. For one, some of them claim to go to that world physically. That's a no. The general talk about being able to live in those worlds for a long time and interact with familiar characters in a favorable way is also suspect. Their assertion that shifting is not some form of astral projection or lucid dreaming only shoots their credibility in the foot.

The psychic realm is a realm where it is easier to believe what you're seeing isn't real. To make any of it even slightly tangible takes extreme discipline. For a moment of time. The idea that a bunch of randos could dig into their inner world and tangibly manifest a fictional setting for months is preposterous. I've had dreams far more convincing than any psychic journey I took awake.

What I suspect of the serious shifters, if there are any, is that they are either performing cognitive backflips to make themselves believe a false memory, or they are being messed with by very powerful spirits. Fae, I suspect.
 

Lyssia

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Well, here's the thing. I have to agree with Walker, if I understand the above right, that essentially the definition of a "god" rests in their relationship with humans; which is to say, there's no fundamental difference between a god and any other spirit beyond the way humans interact and perceive that spirit. With or without that spirit's active encouragement.

But I also think, again, just as my own opinion from my own experiences, that spirits in general don't often get a lot of credit from us humans for being at least as smart, adaptable, and as much individual people as we are. If a spirit has hung around long enough to be a god and made it this far, I'm betting that spirit is quite capable of defining and presenting themselves in more modern forms that are more understandable to modern people. So, are fictional characters real spirits? I write fiction, and I will say, there's a strong difference between writing a character and working with a spirit. On the other hand, I've written novels with characters that were strongly based off of the initial dream contact a spirit made with me. In the same breath, if a fictional character is more accessible to a modern human a spirit wants a relationship with, I don't have any doubt that spirit will present itself in that form. (And probably, not only gods. In the parts of the world where ancestor veneration is rejected, I imagine a creative and determined ancestor might do the same thing.) Frankly, that's where "real" not only gets tricky, but is usually badly defined, especially in occult work.

I will differ with Walker regarding the "reality" of fictional worlds. In my experience, they're not simply "real" for their writers, they are very much "real" for their readers/watchers - sometimes more so, the sane writer draws lines in their minds and lives differentiating their fact from their fantasy, and audience often doesn't. Slenderman was already in the realm of possibility the moment it was created and released, though certainly the feeding of spiritual energy must have made him stronger. But the very answer to your question, I suspect, as to why Slenderman instead of PeppaPig lies in the power of the storytelling around him. Storytelling is an INCREDIABLY powerful occult tool.
 

SkullTraill

Glorious Light of Knowledge and Power
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I guess for me the 2 ideologies I entertain are:
  1. All gods/spirits/dieties are eternal thought forms, but vary from barely existing to extremely powerful and reality-altering based off of the power that humans/sapient beings attribute to them/believe they have.
  2. Same as above, but not eternal, and are created/destroyed through belief in them
The greatest power I have felt/experienced is from sapient will, perhaps to some extent sentient will. I don't see any diety/god/spirit as physical in any way, which is why I don't believe in their power to directly and physically alter the world (at least not anymore). And aside from potentially a creator, I believe that all sorts of spirits thrive off human thoughts, be that desire, will, lust, wrath or just plain faith.

Obviously my thoughts are more complex and conflicted than I can describe in a short post. I might elaborate if I can find the time to sit down and write a long post.
 

The God-King

The Mystical Rebel
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Thanks! Fictitious is a tricky topic. I e come to see reality in scales, tiers, rather than objectivity. There are worlds more real than the one people think they know. There are worlds less real. I'm not comfortable saying a world doesn't exist in any form.

Why? The psychic realm. Everything in it exists in or between minds. With little or no reflection on the sensory or physical. If you make up a world right now, and ask me if it is real or fake, there exists some shadow of it in your portion of the psychic realm. The setting of avatar the last airbender exists among the minds of every writer on that project, and everyone who watched an episode of the show. If I tried to go there, I don't know how well it would respond to interaction. Or if it would have any properties outside the mental.

Sad as it is, two girls once attempted a real sacrifice to appease a patently fictional being. And I'm sure that wasn't the first time that has happened.

The crux of your question, though, is whether shehanine is a "legit" deity. Because my only working model of a god is "they are worshiped because of reasons the follower believes in" they are a legit god when they have one real follower. But that's all my definition implies. I'm not saying the being is strong or what they can do, because that's not part of my definition.
Reflects much of my own beliefs, was not expecting that. Thanks for sharing!
 
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