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Is it true that occultists are supposed to know even the inconvenient secrets of the world?

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As above.
As for myself, I'm interested in everything that mainstream hides from people, so I risk being lumped with conspiracy theorists, but I don't care, as I would read from every political sources, whether left or right.
Am I a bad person for being interested in this?
I would be interested in magic, alchemy or how to interpret fantasy books, if given opportunities.
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Still waiting...
 
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Fr. Maximagus

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New Thought (NT) is fucking rad, dude. It was Chaos Magic long before Chaos Magic. And I increasingly suspect NT is the ur-daddy and little secret of so much of the modern stuff. No real slam . It's pretty great.

Neville is the coolest and best, imho. If only because he keepd it super simple, without alot of uneceassy additions (in that system) like "energy" and "vibes".

I have some old Rosicrucian books from the 1920's that talk about NT was massively popular back then, and had been for some time. Memories being so short, I think what maybe happened is American mind metaphysics jumped the Atlantic, hybridized with British pastoral Victorian age "pagan" community theater, and birthed a whole bunch of new things like Wicca, that then came back over here repackaged.

We were sold our own stuff back to us as the Pure Faith. Basically they just added a bunch of European fairy tales to spice up European imaginations. All fine, if that stuff floats your boat. . Crowley, Gardner, LaVey, what they were... were artists.

Israel Regardie was writing all about Goddard as early as his 1946 book (below) . I think it was just the commonly accepted practice of the time, that we forgot because of the interruption of WW II.

do you think that ceremonial magick or NT is more effective and why?

Meaning which do you think gives better, more consistent results?

I had the same feeling when i stumbled across neville…that he basically deconstructed magick before chaos magicians were a thing lol
 

MorganBlack

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Fr. Maximagus, I think they are both effective, but take different routes.

A small preamble.

I really hate making what sound like truth claims, so take these as what they are: me attempting to describe my experiences, rather than any final word on the practices themselves, or the ultimate nature of reality.

Expanding on my thoughts from the 'What New Age gets right' thread:

OK. I got good at magic (meaning sorcery) by surviving , and helping those who I did sorcery for, to survive the many psychopaths found among the corporate armies of the undead, defeating numerous nazghul , and a legit balrog or two. The only comparable situation I can think to perfect one's Arte might be in being a service magician (brujo, sorcerer, boko) on staff for a drug cartel, or maybe in prison. Fighting evil with evil, fire with fire.

For those who have not worked with them, demons (daimons, imho) often work like intelligent “spells”. Whereas, as far as I can tell, New Thought simply... sort of shifts everything at once one day when you're not looking. It's cool and honestly shocks the fuck out of me more.

It's a little hard to communicate the difference without an example from IRL.

Around 2005, my girlfriend at the time worked in a hostile corporate environment, and was being maliciously attacked by one of her office frenemies to drive her out. To protect her, I used it as an opportunity to use a classic spiritual subjugation working. I gave the demon instructions to make them "sit down" and continue until the danger was eliminated.

At first it manifested effects in the target emotionally, such as self-doubt. But being a psychopath, I suspect, they shrugged that emotional attack off. Per my original charge to the demon, which one of the Legion I do not remember, they then escalated the attack so the psycho was driven to distraction by petty accidents, so much so they were often out of the office. Eventually it made them very sick so they left. Problem solved.

If my girlfriend's attacker had been a person with normal emotions they would have just been made to sit down, and take a breather, and been under my thumb. In my view this is the problem with demons. They are relentless and inclined to overkill. Now I tend to only use them when you need an extreme push at a specific place. A whack with a hammer. I tool very useful to have in one's kit.

With New Thought the effect is like “poof” – suddenly reality shifts and it's just not a problem anymore. Like, don't whack the car… just get a new car.

And I ain't no New Thought master, but it seems like effects in a sort of generalized way, closer to archangels. Good stuff!

But for a while it sort of weirded me out far more than Lovecraftian critters showing up in my living room to do some business.
 

FireBorn

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Point point! I sometimes half-joke NT is Folk Mysticism rather than Folk Magic.
I dont think its a half joke at all. In fact it should probably be its own thread. I mean wear a hard hat if you make it though haha. Its a much deeper conversation than most realize.

Hard to find a way to have that discussion without making it look like you are lessening magick or mysticism. I have not had success with it as of yet. People get touchy, and I get why. I am nowhere near eloquent enough to broach it without ruffling feathers. This is not a topic that needs my style of feather ruffling lol.
 

Fr. Maximagus

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Fr. Maximagus, I think they are both effective, but take different routes.

A small preamble.

I really hate making what sound like truth claims, so take these as what they are: me attempting to describe my experiences, rather than any final word on the practices themselves, or the ultimate nature of reality.

Expanding on my thoughts from the 'What New Age gets right' thread:

OK. I got good at magic (meaning sorcery) by surviving , and helping those who I did sorcery for, to survive the many psychopaths found among the corporate armies of the undead, defeating numerous nazghul , and a legit balrog or two. The only comparable situation I can think to perfect one's Arte might be in being a service magician (brujo, sorcerer, boko) on staff for a drug cartel, or maybe in prison. Fighting evil with evil, fire with fire.

For those who have not worked with them, demons (daimons, imho) often work like intelligent “spells”. Whereas, as far as I can tell, New Thought simply... sort of shifts everything at once one day when you're not looking. It's cool and honestly shocks the fuck out of me more.

It's a little hard to communicate the difference without an example from IRL.

Around 2005, my girlfriend at the time worked in a hostile corporate environment, and was being maliciously attacked by one of her office frenemies to drive her out. To protect her, I used it as an opportunity to use a classic spiritual subjugation working. I gave the demon instructions to make them "sit down" and continue until the danger was eliminated.

At first it manifested effects in the target emotionally, such as self-doubt. But being a psychopath, I suspect, they shrugged that emotional attack off. Per my original charge to the demon, which one of the Legion I do not remember, they then escalated the attack so the psycho was driven to distraction by petty accidents, so much so they were often out of the office. Eventually it made them very sick so they left. Problem solved.

If my girlfriend's attacker had been a person with normal emotions they would have just been made to sit down, and take a breather, and been under my thumb. In my view this is the problem with demons. They are relentless and inclined to overkill. Now I tend to only use them when you need an extreme push at a specific place. A whack with a hammer. I tool very useful to have in one's kit.

With New Thought the effect is like “poof” – suddenly reality shifts and it's just not a problem anymore. Like, don't whack the car… just get a new car.

And I ain't no New Thought master, but it seems like effects in a sort of generalized way, closer to archangels. Good stuff!

But for a while it sort of weirded me out far more than Lovecraftian critters showing up in my living room to do some business.
Idk why but I love that daemons are relentless and "inclined to overkill".

That's just exactly the kind of friend I wanna have on speed dial ya know? Lol
 

MorganBlack

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Hard to find a way to have that discussion without making it look like you are lessening magick or mysticis

I hear ya'.
I am speaking from a New World sorcery perspective. I was just writing this in another thread...

I don't want to erase other views, and I know from the 10,000 sephira view it's a bit of an artificial distinction, but ir can be a useful lens down here.

I wish this operative model was totally original to me. It precedes me in New World sorcery traditions. When a Haitian bokor talks about "magic" (pronounced "mah-jee") what they mean by that looks pretty much nothing like most Anglophone magic folks think of when using the same word.

And what they mean by "witchcraft" looks nothing like modern pagan "wishcraft."

It may have some classical pedigree. Again these are a bit artificial, but in practice it's useful to separate:
1. getting shit done
from
2. "the spiritual practices I do to prepare myself to get shit done"

Magic-Sorcery is deeply chthonic.
See Stephen Skinner's Michael Psellus on the Operation of Daemons
"The classical Greek view however is that the demons occupy the space between the heavens and earth, and are therefore sub-lunurary or under the Moon."

I don't know if the causal agent of American mind mysticism works at this level . Maybe? Either way , most of the people who are practicing either modern pagan "wishcraft" or the more normie-looking NT, do not think of them as chthonic, which suits me just fine.
 
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im also curious about your beef with castenada now. Havent read him but have his book Don Juan.
Anthropological fraud + cult leader (close acolytes committed suicide after his death). In his meanderings he does hit close in theory to a couple truths, but the whole package will only waylay you.
 

AlfrunGrima

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Both the original discussion and the off topic discussion are good. @MorganBlack what would you say about a seperate thread about new thought? It is woven into all the topics you start and reply on. Perhaps it deserves a well discussed eloquent topic on its own, direct magic is a thing. (Fireborn is right)

For the original discussion a few cents. If you post on social media a clickbait link about a secret (true or not) people certainly will click on it. People kind of thrive on the things that have the appearance of being a secret. One could say it is a natural thing of humans. That makes it very appealing to want to read things that are forbidden, taboo or obscure. Not everyone practice what he/she is reading, luckily. So in most cases, it is not a real problem. But, I have to admit, there are some with a violent deformed worldview because or reading the wrong things while they were not stable enough to stand the information. From an occultist who is seeking balanced knowledge one can expect that he or she is stable enough do deal with obscure information... but we all know, from time to time, we see weirdos here. And they are self proclaimed occultist too.

For the people who are spreading conspiracy theories, sorry that I say it in such an unfriendly way, they are getting a dick pick from it. It is all ego to spread such information and knowing that people will click on it and read it. And in a lot of cases, they have found a way to earn money with it.(think of Willem Engel)

I think it is good to know more than the average people, but people don't always like that you have knowledge and be a well-read person. Few of them can experience you as a real threat when they discover it. I personally have experienced hatred because of that. Or they did see me as an elitist, which I am not.
 

Ohana

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Both the original discussion and the off topic discussion are good. @MorganBlack what would you say about a seperate thread about new thought? It is woven into all the topics you start and reply on. Perhaps it deserves a well discussed eloquent topic on its own, direct magic is a thing. (Fireborn is right)

For the original discussion a few cents. If you post on social media a clickbait link about a secret (true or not) people certainly will click on it. People kind of thrive on the things that have the appearance of being a secret. One could say it is a natural thing of humans. That makes it very appealing to want to read things that are forbidden, taboo or obscure. Not everyone practice what he/she is reading, luckily. So in most cases, it is not a real problem. But, I have to admit, there are some with a violent deformed worldview because or reading the wrong things while they were not stable enough to stand the information. From an occultist who is seeking balanced knowledge one can expect that he or she is stable enough do deal with obscure information... but we all know, from time to time, we see weirdos here. And they are self proclaimed occultist too.

For the people who are spreading conspiracy theories, sorry that I say it in such an unfriendly way, they are getting a dick pick from it. It is all ego to spread such information and knowing that people will click on it and read it. And in a lot of cases, they have found a way to earn money with it.(think of Willem Engel)

I think it is good to know more than the average people, but people don't always like that you have knowledge and be a well-read person. Few of them can experience you as a real threat when they discover it. I personally have experienced hatred because of that. Or they did see me as an elitist, which I am not.
Okay I understand what you are saying and I agree I also interested in discussing this New Thought ideas.

But if more conspiracy theories are coming out it might not just be to make a buck now. Back in the past when things in the west were more stable than they are now probably. But things changed really fast in a short time period.

I'm not saying none of these people are not in it for a scheme. But some people might be making more conspiracy theories because of how unstable the world is right now. I apologize if I contributed to any of that because I don't know. I really don't know since this didn't mention any particular users.

Conspiracy theories might be a coping mechanism for a lot of people and also a symptom of people not trusting their leaders. Given what we have got in the last couple years.

I'm used to everything not going right a lot but some people might not and this time period might be really disorienting. If someone is unstable I think they deserve some support to help get them more stable. If they were lying I think they'll be figured out eventually or it will be really obvious.

This time period especially for the western half of the world is not fun. The news is constantly going on about doom and gloom. I think people just need some support through this.

Thats how people got through all the hard times I think. How we got on top as a species. Humans supported each other through hard times.

I apologize all that happening and I apologize if this unintentionally reactivates all wounds. I want to be clear. I do not think you are elitist I just want to give the other side a perspective and my own opinion on these current state of affairs.

Thank you
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Okay I understand what you are saying and I agree I also interested in discussing this New Thought ideas.

But if more conspiracy theories are coming out it might not just be to make a buck now. Back in the past when things in the west were more stable than they are now probably. But things changed really fast in a short time period.

I'm not saying none of these people are not in it for a scheme. But some people might be making more conspiracy theories because of how unstable the world is right now. I apologize if I contributed to any of that because I don't know. I really don't know since this didn't mention any particular users.

Conspiracy theories might be a coping mechanism for a lot of people and also a symptom of people not trusting their leaders. Given what we have got in the last couple years.

I'm used to everything not going right a lot but some people might not and this time period might be really disorienting. If someone is unstable I think they deserve some support to help get them more stable. If they were lying I think they'll be figured out eventually or it will be really obvious.

This time period especially for the western half of the world is not fun. The news is constantly going on about doom and gloom. I think people just need some support through this.

Thats how people got through all the hard times I think. How we got on top as a species. Humans supported each other through hard times.

I apologize all that happening and I apologize if this unintentionally reactivates all wounds. I want to be clear. I do not think you are elitist I just want to give the other side a perspective and my own opinion on these current state of affairs.

Thank you
Wait but all wounds I meant old wounds typo
 
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HoldAll

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How many times did you "upscaled" so far?
My bad, let's not turn this into a joke thread, the OP's question seems to have been sincere. The point I usually make in this connection is that people have an unhealthy obsession with secrets that aren't any - write a book or make a TV show with "The Secret of...", and people will be drawn to it like a moth to a flame. It's almost an erotic thing... label something 'secret', and a big hullaballoo is guaranteed.

Real secrets are so utterly concealed that the public won't even know they existed, held by groups of people nobody has ever heard of and which won't leave any handy clues on obelisks or whatnot for conspiracy nuts to spuriously connect. I personally don't set much story by the word 'secret'. It's either "Shit no one care's about", an outright lie, or too obscure to be of any interest.
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It's like claiming that something invisible existed. Naturally, everybody will want to see it - they can't since it's invisible but they won't be able to leave it alone. "The Hidden Truth behind..." is so sexy because the fact that anything hidden is hidden from our monkey curiosity is intolerable for us. "The Forbidden Wisdom..." can't be tolerated by us either (who's doing all that 'forbidding' anyway? the Holy Inquisition?), 'forbidden' is probably even sexier than 'secret' and 'hidden'. People will forever want to peek under the skirts of society. Or of the universe, like us here. ;)
 
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AlfrunGrima

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I'm not saying none of these people are not in it for a scheme. But some people might be making more conspiracy theories because of how unstable the world is right now. I apologize if I contributed to any of that because I don't know. I really don't know since this didn't mention any particular users.
For some it can be coping indeed, forgot about that because i've seen such a long story otherwise.--> The people who fell here around me in the trap of conspiracy, were a lot of people who had problems with the government. I knew the scene a little bit when I lived in a nearby city. My neighbor ( we lived on the same attic of an old house) was a longtime drugs (ab)user and from all over the country guys came to visit and they tried to get me on their side of fighting against the government and trying to make believe their conspiracies. Most problems they had with the government--> not paying fines that they got because of peeing outside in the inner cities were it was not allowed or even in front of children, vandalism, stealing things, peeing in mailboxes. That sort of things. It was in 2000 then, long before this very unstable world we have now. (yeah, I agree with you. The world is really unstable and I find it rather scary)

Luckily I left that part of the city and came back to the little village. But the ones here in my area who posted frequently those theories online had all a their own system own getting money from it. Luckily a few of them were put to jail or were convicted to community service, some due to other problems. One of them lived 2 villages further on mine and he had revenue money model many years before corona, but became well-known because of corona. First in accepting cheques as donation, later on with donations on the internet. There were even people who were putting money in an envelope and put that in the mailbox at his home. He presented himself as a messiah who did fight against the government and there were a few more of that kinds of guys here in the Netherlands. Because of internet we see more of these kind of guys now, but from what I see it is not a new thing. And, one of the problems is that internet gives them al lot of opportunities...... But, I am happy also that it gives us the opportunity to change ideas Ohana. Thank you for adding things and thank you for being careful to other people in other threads.
 

albie

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As above.
As for myself, I'm interested in everything that mainstream hides from people, so I risk being lumped with conspiracy theorists, but I don't care, as I would read from every political sources, whether left or right.
Am I a bad person for being interested in this?
I would be interested in magic, alchemy or how to interpret fantasy books, if given opportunities.
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Still waiting...
I have reached a philosophy so dire and true that it makes me depressed. Want to hear? :p
 

MorganBlack

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what would you say about a seperate thread about new thought

Sounds great to me, AlfrunGrima!

I've made so many off-hand comments peppered about about how I think it's a core practice. It would be nice to have a mega-thread. Or even an entire Chaos Magic / New Thought / Positive Mind Metaphysics sub-section.

New Thought (NT) communities are incredibly positive and supportive. Nobody thinks someone else's method takes anything away from theirs - at least among the Neville Goddardian "Law of Assumption" peeps. In New Thought, techniques are seen as just that - techniques - and are cumulative and reinforcing, rather than singular, specific, and insular.

The work great in that context - and same good ideas percolated outward later in the mid-20th century 'Wiccanate' formulations (as Prof. Ronald Hutton calls most modern paganism), which adopted and applied a lot of those same ideas.

These good ideas percolated on from the Gardnerians to other Wiccanate influced modern magic systems and most of WitchTok, where they became a creed, - and then later became bad ideas if appled without nuance to Sublunar 'Daimonic' systems. When someone yells at a traditional grimoire magician, "Just do magic, ya dummy," that is where that idea comes from.

So, if we had more operative separation between - variously - "Above and Below," "Heaven and Hell," "The Overworld and The Underworld," or "Mysticism and Sorcery," that would help a lot, I feel.

Underworld daimons, at least in the Grimorium Verum do have, or appear to have, very much their own preferences, and will let you know. "Doing whatever" because you don't like the protocols can get you in trouble if you're working with the "hot" part of the Infernal Hierarchy. Aside from a few, they are all quite particular, fitting what the myths of Hell/Hades teach us about dealing with beings from whatever that world is. As a wise man once said, "When in Rome, or Hell, speak Latin." :)
 

Asteriskos

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"The Forbidden Wisdom..." can't be tolerated by us either (who's doing all that 'forbidding' anyway? the Holy Inquisition?), 'forbidden' is probably even sexier than 'secret' and 'hidden'
And, it's not limited to adults either, forbid any random three year old child to do something, it's priceless to watch what happens!
 
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