LP / RP - Faith compatibility

[Nobody]

Hello everybody,

As a novice in the occult disciplines, I have some questions about the compatibility of beliefs and magical paths. I am gradually becoming aware of the possible paths, namely the left and the right.

My questions will probably make some of you smile. The objective is to learn and I wanted to submit two of them related to this subject:

I) Is it possible to follow the left-hand path, while maintaining a faith (whatever it may be), without worshipping a demonic entity? Ex: practicing Solomonic ceremonial magic.
II) Is working with demons for various knowledge-related reasons considered incompatible with the Judeo-Christian ways?

Thank you in advance for your answers,

N

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

The Geotia are Judeo Christian, as are the Shemhamphoresh. As for other beings, I cannot speak for, but I acknowledge man - in my belief system - was created by God in his image. Therefore, his anatomy and physiology are like us, yet he does not age, we do.

Therefore, yes, if you are a member of the Juedo-Chrisitian family or RHP and go Team Demonolatry, you are - and I speak from experience - making a grave mistake.

 

[Nobody]

The Geotia are Judeo Christian, as are the Shemhamphoresh. As for other beings, I cannot speak for, but I acknowledge man - in my belief system - was created by God in his image. Therefore, his anatomy and physiology are like us, yet he does not age, we do.

Therefore, yes, if you are a member of the Juedo-Chrisitian family or RHP and go Team Demonolatry, you are - and I speak from experience - making a grave mistake.

If the demons present in the Goetia are Judeo-Christian, is evoking them a violation of the principles established by these same religions? Are the demons present in it separate from other demons found in demonology? Just to make it clear to me. Thank you !

 

[William66]

I) Is it possible to follow the left-hand path, while maintaining a faith (whatever it may be), without worshipping a demonic entity? Ex: practicing Solomonic ceremonial magic.

Hello there
I perform evocations (not as much these days) when i am in need of (material things or knowledge) and i do believe in God and worship Him.

If God is merciful, perhaps He will be able to understand and even forgive the individual who decides to take this path.

I promised myself that i would never use this practice for causing harm to anybody or anything, not even to a single leaf on a tree. Only for the better. I do sometimes ask myself lowkey ''Where will this practice with demons lead me in the afterlife?''. I'd better stack up my good deeds/acts.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: LP / RP - Faith compatibility
SUBTOPIC: ≈ The differentiation and Compatibility
⁜→ Nobody, et al,

For the most part, the Right-Hand Path and the Left-Hand Path • White Magic • Dark Magic • Faith-Based or non-believer • all are entangled. They are assigned according to recorded acts across a timeline. The only noticeable difference is that if there is a belief in any one of the Abrahamic religions then, that necessitates a belief in the supernatural. This entanglement can cross the realm of the supernatural to the moral. The classic example is a Witch's/Warlock's Familiar. If a Familiar is injured, the mortal to which it is bonded may also feel a simpathic pain.

I) Is it possible to follow the left-hand path, while maintaining a faith (whatever it may be), without worshipping a demonic entity? Ex: practicing Solomonic ceremonial magic.

(COMMENT)

In your example, the answer is YES. Those activities that tend to resemble practices handed down from King Solomon (and some by the Queen of Sheba) are associated with the faith (in the Supreme Being). The First Oration by King Solomon in the Holy of Holies asks the Creator - "that I may be able to gain the knowledge of every Science, Art, and Wisdom; and of every Faculty of Memory, Intelligences, Understanding, and Intellect, by the Vertue and Power of thy most holy Spirit, and in thy Name." You will notice that King Solomon praises the Creator (who actually holds the power) and wants to ascend to the next higher plane of existence (heaven). This is an example of the Right-Hand Path (RHP)(on the White Magic Side). The Left-Hand Path (LHP) is a form of magic that empowers King Solomon and makes him more powerful in the mortal realm.

II) Is working with demons for various knowledge-related reasons considered incompatible with the Judeo-Christian ways?

(COMMENT)

A witch's/warlock's Familiar is a Spirit. The preponderance of Western practices and tradition holds that the original "familiars" were a gift from the dark realm. The general thought is that a familiar is a demonic creature that shifts from a Demon (if necessary to protect its partner) into a more common animal. Familiars can communicate with its partner. A witch's/warlock's Familiar can be very intelligent and is often said to provide advice and assistance to the mortal to which it has bonded. There is no real indication that a Familiar acts in any way other than in the best interest of the mortal to which it is bonded. Familiars can be • white • or • dark • depending on the character of the mortal.

(SIDEBAR)

A Familiar is an entity of divine inspiration (if you are RHP believer as well as LHP).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Nobody]

I promised myself that i would never use this practice for causing harm to anybody or anything, not even to a single leaf on a tree. Only for the better. I do sometimes ask myself lowkey ''Where will this practice with demons lead me in the afterlife?''. I'd better stack up my good deeds/acts.

You have understood my point. Is it tasting the forbidden fruit to want to acquire a certain form of knowledge through certain entities rather than others? If the purpose is to collaborate with them for the sake of knowledge and not for the purpose of harm, then the use should not be considered contrary to certain beliefs. I may be wrong and ignorant though.

In your example, the answer is YES. Those activities that tend to resemble practices handed down from King Solomon (and some by the Queen of Sheba) are associated with the faith (in the Supreme Being). The First Oration by King Solomon in the Holy of Holies asks the Creator - "that I may be able to gain the knowledge of every Science, Art, and Wisdom; and of every Faculty of Memory, Intelligences, Understanding, and Intellect, by the Vertue and Power of thy most holy Spirit, and in thy Name." You will notice that King Solomon praises the Creator (who actually holds the power) and wants to ascend to the next higher plane of existence (heaven). This is an example of the Right-Hand Path (RHP)(on the White Magic Side). The Left-Hand Path (LHP) is a form of magic that empowers King Solomon and makes him more powerful in the mortal realm.

The designation between the two accessible paths refers to beings with different but not necessarily opposite knowledge. Since we experience an existence in this dimension, the use of LHP could serve as a complement to RHP or am I mistaken? The more I read, the more I doubt and the more I realise that some individuals choose one over the other.

Using Solomonic practices allows one to "capture" demons in order to work with them for a determined period of time. There is no "pact" made but rather contracts established in exchange for offerings (or not). If the customs established by this practice allow the individual to become a better version of himself without harming others, is it de facto considered heretical?

Is there a notion of "equality" between individuals that is violated by LHP? If so, could the possession of mere occult knowledge (other than magic) not also be considered contrary to Abramic religions?

Fire is dangerous from the moment you put your hand in it. However, if it is used to light a candle, its use becomes different and is not necessarily dangerous.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: LP / RP - Faith compatibility
SUBTOPIC: ≈ The differentiation and Compatibility
⁜→ Nobody, et al,

The Left-hand Path (LHP) is magic to use in the acquisition of wealth and power. (It is self-aggrandizing and self-empowerment.)

The Right-Hand Path (RHP) is an individual lifestyle of devotion to a power beyond the realm of man and piety. (Focusing your true attention (meditation and prayer) on a deity is an example of the RHP.)

The RHP and the LHP do not repeal one another. Those grasping for powers (LHP) and those focused on the Devine can be blended into a cooperative method.

---

If you already practice magic, and you are drawing on the energies of that beyond the realm of man - you are on both paths.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Lazarus]

The biggest problem here is that the terminology just sucks. High/low, dark/light, left/right, black/white, etc. ad nauseam. To even have the discussion you have to continuously reestablish the meanings of these terms for the sake of clarity among conversational participants.

With such ambiguity and flexibility, the terms themselves become virtually meaningless. As Rocco mentioned, they are heavily intertwined and not clear-cut black and white anyway. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the terms.

Questions one might ask:

Is the practice detrimental to you or others?
Does something about the practice repulse you?

Those questions will either encourage or discourage you. Go from there lol.

 

[Luzebel]

The Geotia are Judeo Christian

They really aren't. They are much closer to the Greek idea of divine intelligences. They are self-serving Gods who care for their genuine followers (those who approach them with respect instead of trying to bind and threaten them for their selfish needs). Nothing about them suggest they were ever angels and most of them were pagan gods from Caanan/Syria. There's nothing to be afraid of as long as you play nice, and they don't care if you're a christian. They are not at war with heavens and they can follow you inside churches without burning, believe it or not.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Well, I guess I was incorrect then. However, if anyone has read a bible you can pick out 5-10 goetia names. I would suspect then since the Bible lists these names, that they are then by association Judea-Christian. Belial is one. Lucifer is one. Satan is one. Baal is one. It speaks of the Dukles and Kings ion Edom which generated the Qlippoth. There is also a curious passage in the Bible about nine kings, which is an unusual number for a squad. As for the others they may not be what I thought they were. However, this is a Christians viewpoint, and I know other religions exist and therefore names change.

 

[Nobody]

Questions one might ask:

Is the practice detrimental to you or others?
Does something about the practice repulse you?

Those questions will either encourage or discourage you. Go from there lol.

The concept of good and evil is ultimately purely manichean and reflects the beliefs originally attributed to Christianity, where one could say 'objectively' what is good and what is evil. But in reality, it is quite subjective as it depends on the position an individual is in and what they perceive. Who ultimately holds the legitimacy of moral attribution of good and bad notions?

Let's take the example that I use the black arts for a curse. I use it to avenge a person who has been attacked. Is this considered doing harm?

If I do a "nice little ritual" to attract abundance and a new job to me, but because of my fault, someone loses theirs or doesn't get the opportunity they should have. The original intention was not for someone to lose an opportunity, but I find out after the fact. Assuming that this is the result of my action but it was not my original intention at all, is this considered doing harm?

By taking some of these perspectives, you really do realise that this is going to vary from person to person. The notion of right and wrong and moral values are not arbitrarily defined and ultimately depend on a lot of factors (education, environment, prior beliefs, etc.).

Another example would be working with anger. In our western societies, this emotion is often associated with negative things. But, again, for some individuals, it can be a "motor" to accomplish different actions (undertake, help,...) without it being negative (both for others and for ourselves). Is the use of violence as a driving force for action a bad thing?

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

If the demons present in the Goetia are Judeo-Christian, is evoking them a violation of the principles established by these same religions? Are the demons present in it separate from other demons found in demonology? Just to make it clear to me. Thank you !

It really does astound me, talking with a Jehovah Witness today about tens of thousands of church denominations in Christianity alone.
It doesn't mean people dont willfully disobey, believers or not.
Sometimes self-protection and doing service of good nature for others, I dont see that landing you in hot water.
Paul I believe raised the point "what concourse has a Christian with Belial" or the likes. Look up the Sons of Eli, thats Bells work.
Now, a kingdom divided cannot stand.
Therefore, it astounds me how Christianity can be so messed up when its quite simple. It also astounds me as how much more freedom other religions have, such as Shintoism or Hinduism, or Voodoo.
It is all intermixed at some point, but I change my views, you can be a magician while worshipping God. Most of us do this in invocations anyway.
As far as evoking, yes, thats forbidden in JCI. Doesn't mean we dont do it, and sometimes its done for good reasons, even self-preservation and self-survival. The world is rough, and the wicked have it moderately easy from my observation. Us magicians starting out will have difficulties with spirits.
I also think that those not trapped within the law of JCI have it moderately easy.

 

[William66]

If I do a "nice little ritual" to attract abundance and a new job to me, but because of my fault, someone loses theirs or doesn't get the opportunity they should have. The original intention was not for someone to lose an opportunity

Yes i like this one, i thought like this before evoking a spirit for a job, i was clear that i did not want anyone to get hurt or lose anything. Getting what i want from a spirit at all cost is not success in my eyes, so i set boundaries for the spirit.

 

[sandros]

Great discussion!

 

[Roma]

The concept of good and evil is ultimately purely manichean

Do other soul-bearing species have concepts corresponding to good and evil?

 

[Xenophon]

Do other soul-bearing species have concepts corresponding to good and evil?

Good question. There have been and still are a good many human cultures that didn't/don't buy into the full-frontal manichean scheme. (One such place is China which, ironically, has what is said to be the world's last operating Manichean temple.)

 

[HoldAll]

Hello everybody,

As a novice in the occult disciplines, I have some questions about the compatibility of beliefs and magical paths. I am gradually becoming aware of the possible paths, namely the left and the right.

My questions will probably make some of you smile. The objective is to learn and I wanted to submit two of them related to this subject:

I) Is it possible to follow the left-hand path, while maintaining a faith (whatever it may be), without worshipping a demonic entity? Ex: practicing Solomonic ceremonial magic.
II) Is working with demons for various knowledge-related reasons considered incompatible with the Judeo-Christian ways?

Thank you in advance for your answers,

N

In the Catholic Church with its centralized and (according to Church dogma) infallible authority, any and all consorting with spirits is a sin. Pope Benedict even limited the permissible veneration of archangels to Raphael, Michael and Gabriel - and only because they were the only ones mentioned in the bible; he may have had Western-style ceremonial magic in mind. It's trickier in other faiths lacking such a central authority, theological discussions about sin tend to degenerate into lawyerly hairsplitting there as far as borderline cases are concerned.

What you really ask for is our absolution for something you want to do anyway - and nobody here can give you that. So you can tell yourself, "It's not a sin if... (I put just the tip in, etc.)" in order to bypass any religious rules & regulations, and then we're back in hairsplitting territory again. Following the left-hand path (at least in my understanding) means eliminating all such faith-based restraints and following one's own moral compass without any outside interference - liberation, in one word. When one reads the early books of E.A. Koetting, for example, you can practically feel him struggling hard and violently against his mormon upbringing and liberating himself, so the LHP and faith do not go together in my book.

I myself am an apatheist, meaning I don't care one way or another if god really exists. Monotheism is a really limiting paradigm which is why I don't like it; others find it empowering, so good on them, I say, just don't try to make me a convert.

 

[Roma]

A couple of contextual comments:

- deism is not the same as theism. An atheist may be a deist. May the Force be with you.

- the human may be designed for higher plane functionality within Existence. If so, the human cannot do whatever it wants indefinitely

- if the human has design functions, physical and religious history indicate a lot of interference is going on

 

[Wintruz]

I) Is it possible to follow the left-hand path, while maintaining a faith (whatever it may be), without worshipping a demonic entity? Ex: practicing Solomonic ceremonial magic.

I wouldn't describe Solomonic magic as Left Hand Path.

You are free to believe whatever you want. The question is, what are those beliefs doing? Are they strengthening you or are they subtly undermining your own authority over your life?

Is the tone "I'm playing at being in control but I know deep down that God is pulling the strings/will make everything alright in the end" or "this is just an edgy theme in a greater song that's beyond me" or, even, "I don't really understand what I'm doing but I will be loyal to tha dARk LoRD SATIN 2 tha death!"? If so, I would say that those beliefs are in conflict with a path which calls for you to become your own god and reconfigure your experience of life.

And that is the key to anything that I would recognise to be Left Hand Path, that you are the final authority over your own life. It's a responsibility that most people cannot handle (I'm not knocking anyone for this - see below) including many attracted to the symbols of the LHP. These will tend to treat "demons" like they used to treat God, but with extra subconscious guilt, second-guessing and desperation, all of which lead to depersonalisation, confusion and unhappiness. They'd have been far better off adopting atheism as a temporary paradigm (I say temporary because there are mysteries later, but they're not helpful at the beginning) or, better yet, getting in touch with their ancestral paganism. Those frameworks will have supported a conception of the Self which is authoritative.

II) Is working with demons for various knowledge-related reasons considered incompatible with the Judeo-Christian ways?

Yes. No real Christian theologian would approve of truck with demons. You may find accounts in the lives of saints where there is command over demons but those people were saints first.

I remember having a conversation with a friend who is Orthodox and explaining the complexities of the Enochian system to him. He looked at me amazed and said "if we want to get in touch with angels, we just talk to them". In the Christian tradition, Solomon prays to God for wisdom and it is given freely; you already have a pattern in which you are seemingly invested. If you are sincere, that pattern will bring you what you want quicker than waving seals in chalk circles and it will be far less psychologically taxing.

I hold that I see things they do not, but that doesn't mean that I do not have respect for those who are properly practicing Christianity, Buddhism or other forms of the Right Hand Path. Very often, the innocence and decency which attend proper RHP practice are beguiling and enchanting to a jaded Satanist otherwise trawling through emails from damaged teenagers asking about "tha dARk LoRD SATIN" (this really happened). Certainly, I'd rather spend my time in the company of someone who is virtuous and loving rather than yet another "magician" whose conjurations haven't brought him what he desired but only the knowledge that he's acted against a conception of divinity that once brought him joy and meaning.

 

[Xenophon]

I wouldn't describe Solomonic magic as Left Hand Path.

You are free to believe whatever you want. The question is, what are those beliefs doing? Are they strengthening you or are they subtly undermining your own authority over your life?

Is the tone "I'm playing at being in control but I know deep down that God is pulling the strings/will make everything alright in the end" or "this is just an edgy theme in a greater song that's beyond me" or, even, "I don't really understand what I'm doing but I will be loyal to tha dARk LoRD SATIN 2 tha death!"? If so, I would say that those beliefs are in conflict with a path which calls for you to become your own god and reconfigure your experience of life.

And that is the key to anything that I would recognise to be Left Hand Path, that you are the final authority over your own life. It's a responsibility that most people cannot handle (I'm not knocking anyone for this - see below) including many attracted to the symbols of the LHP. These will tend to treat "demons" like they used to treat God, but with extra subconscious guilt, second-guessing and desperation, all of which lead to depersonalisation, confusion and unhappiness. They'd have been far better off adopting atheism as a temporary paradigm (I say temporary because there are mysteries later, but they're not helpful at the beginning) or, better yet, getting in touch with their ancestral paganism. Those frameworks will have supported a conception of the Self which is authoritative.



Yes. No real Christian theologian would approve of truck with demons. You may find accounts in the lives of saints where there is command over demons but those people were saints first.

I remember having a conversation with a friend who is Orthodox and explaining the complexities of the Enochian system to him. He looked at me amazed and said "if we want to get in touch with angels, we just talk to them". In the Christian tradition, Solomon prays to God for wisdom and it is given freely; you already have a pattern in which you are seemingly invested. If you are sincere, that pattern will bring you what you want quicker than waving seals in chalk circles and it will be far less psychologically taxing.

I hold that I see things they do not, but that doesn't mean that I do not have respect for those who are properly practicing Christianity, Buddhism or other forms of the Right Hand Path. Very often, the innocence and decency which attend proper RHP practice are beguiling and enchanting to a jaded Satanist otherwise trawling through emails from damaged teenagers asking about "tha dARk LoRD SATIN" (this really happened). Certainly, I'd rather spend my time in the company of someone who is virtuous and loving rather than yet another "magician" whose conjurations haven't brought him what he desired but only the knowledge that he's acted against a conception of divinity that once brought him joy and meaning.

The guy I'd like to meet (and become) is the guy who knows that 1) he has acted against what he has been taught, because he believes that teaching misguided, 2) whose conjurations have still not gotten him where he wants to go, BUT who gives no sign of any of his in his dealings with others. He has the self-possession to sail serene even if a tempest blows up within. It's rare to meet with such a one outside, say, of the pages of classical authors like Plutarch.

 

[Wintruz]

The guy I'd like to meet (and become) is the guy who knows that 1) he has acted against what he has been taught, because he believes that teaching misguided, 2) whose conjurations have still not gotten him where he wants to go, BUT who gives no sign of any of his in his dealings with others. He has the self-possession to sail serene even if a tempest blows up within. It's rare to meet with such a one outside, say, of the pages of classical authors like Plutarch.

Yes, though this sounds like a man on a different wave-length to "I want magic but I also want the comfort of my faith". In the latter situation, following the disciplines of conventional religion is more likely to lead to productive and socially well-adjusted people than wasting time and energy on dead paradigms of demonology.

Now, if he'd asked how to use the LHP to force his eyes open...