LP / RP - Faith compatibility

[Nobody]

Hello everybody,

As a novice in the occult disciplines, I have some questions about the compatibility of beliefs and magical paths. I am gradually becoming aware of the possible paths, namely the left and the right.

My questions will probably make some of you smile. The objective is to learn and I wanted to submit two of them related to this subject:

I) Is it possible to follow the left-hand path, while maintaining a faith (whatever it may be), without worshipping a demonic entity? Ex: practicing Solomonic ceremonial magic.
II) Is working with demons for various knowledge-related reasons considered incompatible with the Judeo-Christian ways?

Thank you in advance for your answers,

N

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

The person referred to the above might consider the Mormon church, at least temporarily. Many benefits.

 

[Roma]

The person referred to the above might consider the Mormon church, at least temporarily. Many benefits.

You are braver than I. Recommending religions seems to me particularly dangerous. I do not know any uncompromised religion

I try to avoid unnecessary karma.

 

[Xenophon]

Yes, though this sounds like a man on a different wave-length to "I want magic but I also want the comfort of my faith". In the latter situation, following the disciplines of conventional religion is more likely to lead to productive and socially well-adjusted people than wasting time and energy on dead paradigms of demonology.

Now, if he'd asked how to use the LHP to force his eyes open...

Actually the point is the guy has his conflicts but refuses to display them in public. A matter of self-control. That and perhaps strategy. Neither men nor gods nor demons have a whole lot of use for whingers.

Post automatically merged: Nov 24, 2023

The person referred to the above might consider the Mormon church, at least temporarily. Many benefits.

Which person? The guy I was writing about does NOT buy into the creeds he was schooled in nor does he PRACTICE them. He does his workings quietly and does not bemoan "lost faith" nor anchorages not yet found.

Post automatically merged: Nov 24, 2023

Yes, though this sounds like a man on a different wave-length to "I want magic but I also want the comfort of my faith". In the latter situation, following the disciplines of conventional religion is more likely to lead to productive and socially well-adjusted people than wasting time and energy on dead paradigms of demonology.

Now, if he'd asked how to use the LHP to force his eyes open...

Are you referring to my post? I just said HE ACTS AGAINST WHAT HE HAS BEEN TAUGHT. Where, in there, is "the comfort of my faith"?! Nothing is said or implied about "following conventional religion." I said he gives no sign that his conjurings have not gotten him where he wants to go. NOTHING was said about playing at conventional religion. The guy I describe simply does not whinge publicly that he is not yet as successful as he would like to be.

Is it really this godsdamned hard to understand what is commonly called stoic self-discipline? One drops the gods of his fathers. One takes one chances with his efforts. When these fall short, he does not parade his disappointment. And THIS, THIS (!) is "wanting the comfort" of traditional faith?! THIS is "following conventional religion"?! Keeping quiet about being a not-yet-perfected LHP practice is the same as a Mormon?

OK. F*** this place. I'm looking for a forum that speeka the King's English and eschews Alice in Wonderland un-logic.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

You are braver than I. Recommending religions seems to me particularly dangerous. I do not know any uncompromised religion

I try to avoid unnecessary karma.

The reason i recommend it is that it is Freemasonry based and follows the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods. The elders are the younger ones, the Brothers accompany and teach the elders.

Post automatically merged: Nov 24, 2023

Hello everybody,

As a novice in the occult disciplines, I have some questions about the compatibility of beliefs and magical paths. I am gradually becoming aware of the possible paths, namely the left and the right.

My questions will probably make some of you smile. The objective is to learn and I wanted to submit two of them related to this subject:

I) Is it possible to follow the left-hand path, while maintaining a faith (whatever it may be), without worshipping a demonic entity? Ex: practicing Solomonic ceremonial magic.
II) Is working with demons for various knowledge-related reasons considered incompatible with the Judeo-Christian ways?

Thank you in advance for your answers,

N

Older Magi such as Levi, Agrippa, Barrett and others would say no to both.

Post automatically merged: Nov 24, 2023

I think leaving this forum would be a mistake. There are several competent magicians here.

 

[HoldAll]

Hello everybody,

As a novice in the occult disciplines, I have some questions about the compatibility of beliefs and magical paths. I am gradually becoming aware of the possible paths, namely the left and the right.

My questions will probably make some of you smile. The objective is to learn and I wanted to submit two of them related to this subject:

I) Is it possible to follow the left-hand path, while maintaining a faith (whatever it may be), without worshipping a demonic entity? Ex: practicing Solomonic ceremonial magic.
II) Is working with demons for various knowledge-related reasons considered incompatible with the Judeo-Christian ways?

Thank you in advance for your answers,

N

To put it bluntly, the only faith (or lack thereof) suitable for the LHP is atheism. So you want to become a strong independent individual while still cleaving to an Abrahamic belief system? A hardcore Satanist would probably call it 'part-time slavery'. Total liberation while still bowing down to a master? Does not compute, it's as simple as that.

Even without walking the LHP, I claim the right to conjure up any being I want, both as a magician and a liberated person, without asking any (imagined) authority for permission.

For my money, Solomonic magic and the old grimoires may be considered 'Christian' because Christianity was the only reference system the authors knew, and the entities described in those books are outside any such system. From my meagre experience with archangels I'd say that even they do not have anything in common with the beings mentioned in the bible; they appear to be as tremendous forces for which we are just like so much plankton in the path of a supertanker - they may have some ineffable relationship with God but it's entirely incomprehensible to our simple-minded three pounds of squishy mass of grey cells.

We are messing with something we only believe to understand, making rules for entities that barely acknowledge our existence. Believers ascribe patterns of behaviour to a supreme being that's by definition beyond all good and evil and is - well, I have to use that term again - ineffable. Various denominations have turned god into some sort of supreme court justice who will always rule in their favour (provided they're 'good' according to laws they made up themselves). An admittedly very agnostic point of view.

Just do the hell what you want without seeking divine justification from above, that's all I say.

 

[Xenophon]

To put it bluntly, the only faith (or lack thereof) suitable for the LHP is atheism. So you want to become a strong independent individual while still cleaving to an Abrahamic belief system? A hardcore Satanist would probably call it 'part-time slavery'. Total liberation while still bowing down to a master? Does not compute, it's as simple as that.

Even without walking the LHP, I claim the right to conjure up any being I want, both as a magician and a liberated person, without asking any (imagined) authority for permission.

For my money, Solomonic magic and the old grimoires may be considered 'Christian' because Christianity was the only reference system the authors knew, and the entities described in those books are outside any such system. From my meagre experience with archangels I'd say that even they do not have anything in common with the beings mentioned in the bible; they appear to be as tremendous forces for which we are just like so much plankton in the path of a supertanker - they may have some ineffable relationship with God but it's entirely incomprehensible to our simple-minded three pounds of squishy mass of grey cells.

We are messing with something we only believe to understand, making rules for entities that barely acknowledge our existence. Believers ascribe patterns of behaviour to a supreme being that's by definition beyond all good and evil and is - well, I have to use that term again - ineffable. Various denominations have turned god into some sort of supreme court justice who will always rule in their favour (provided they're 'good' according to laws they made up themselves). An admittedly very agnostic point of view.

Just do the hell what you want without seeking divine justification from above, that's all I say.

Somewheres (Spain?) there's a saying, 'Take all you want, but remember: you must pay for everything."

 

[Wintruz]

Are you referring to my post? I just said HE ACTS AGAINST WHAT HE HAS BEEN TAUGHT. Where, in there, is "the comfort of my faith"?! Nothing is said or implied about "following conventional religion." I said he gives no sign that his conjurings have not gotten him where he wants to go. NOTHING was said about playing at conventional religion. The guy I describe simply does not whinge publicly that he is not yet as successful as he would like to be.

Is it really this godsdamned hard to understand what is commonly called stoic self-discipline? One drops the gods of his fathers. One takes one chances with his efforts. When these fall short, he does not parade his disappointment. And THIS, THIS (!) is "wanting the comfort" of traditional faith?! THIS is "following conventional religion"?! Keeping quiet about being a not-yet-perfected LHP practice is the same as a Mormon?

OK. F*** this place. I'm looking for a forum that speeka the King's English and eschews Alice in Wonderland un-logic.

Raised eye-brow

Were you having a feline mad hour here?

I was referring to the OP who is thinking about undertaking a Solomonic working but who, I deduce, is morally conflicted by it on account of his Christianity. I was advising that sincerely practicing his religion would be more advantageous to him than violating his conscience for uncertain results with Solomonic fripperies. I then drew a distinction between that advice and jettisoning the whole psychology in favour of the LHP.

I'm not sure where Lewis Carroll's Stoic Mormon whinge came into play...

 

[stalkinghyena]

Alice in Wonderland un-logic.

Did you skim over where Grant declares "Magick is the apotheosis of the irrational."?
Though I do like the term "un-logic", I prefer "dream logic".

But to Nobody's concerns, I came across is an interesting historical gem that kind of shows me how people tried to "reconcile" apparently opposed notions of "faith compatibility" in the middle ages in terms of what we nowadays refer to as "LHP". The following is the 1398 Condemnation of the University of Paris against various magical practices ongoing among the students - many of whom were tonsured and sponsored by the Catholic Church, being groomed to be priests. Though the list execrates these practices, it also shows what people were actively doing there, and it probably went on even after the Condemnation, especially considering that men like Agrippa were students there.


Determination made by the faculty of theology at Paris in the year of our lord 1398 regarding certain newly arisen superstitions.

The first article is this: That to seek intimacy, friendship, and help from demons by means of magical arts, harmful magical acts, and forbidden invocations is not idolatry. This is an error because the demon is judged to be an undaunted and implacable adversary of god and man. He is incapable of ever receiving any truly divine honor or dominion by participation or by suitability like other rational creatures that have not been condemned. Nor is God adorned in these demons as a sign instituted at his pleasure such as images or shrines.

The second article: That to give or to offer or to promise demons any sort of things so they fulfilled the desire of man, even to bear something valued by them in their honor is not idolatry. This is an error.

The third article: To enter an implicit or explicit pact with demons is neither idolatry or a species of idolatry or apostasy. This is an error. And by implicit pact we mean superstitious ritual the effects of which cannot be reasonably traced to either God or nature.

The fourth: That it is not idolatrous to use magical arts to try to enclose, to force, to restrain demons in stones, rings, or images consecrated [better?] execrated to their names or even to make these objects come to life by demonic power. This is an error.

The fifth: That it is allowed to use magical arts or other kinds of superstition prohibited by God or the church for any good moral purpose. This is an error because according to the apostle evil cannot be done that good can result from it.

The sixth: That it is allowed or even permitted to repel maleficia or sorcery by other maleficia. This is an error.

The seventh: That someone can dispense with something in a particular situation in order to use such arts illicitly. This is an error.

The eighth: The magical arts, similar superstitions, and their practice are unreasonably prohibited by the church. This is an error.

The ninth: That the magical arts and malefica or sorcery lead god to compel demons to obey his imprecations. This is an error.

The Tenth: That the offering of incense and smoke performed in the exercise of such arts and sorcery is in god’s honor and pleases him. This is an error and a blasphemy since God would not otherwise punish or prohibit.

The eleventh: That to use such and do so is not to sacrifice or to make immolations to demons and therefore is not damnable idolatry. This is an error.

The twelfth: That sacred words and certain kinds of devout prayers and fasts and cleansings and bodily self-control and [boys?] and other and celebration of mass and other types of good works which are all performed in order to do these arts; that these good works somehow exculpate the evil in the arts and do not rather indict it. This is an error, for by means of such sacred acts an attempt is made to sacrifice something even god himself in the eucharist to demons. The demon makes these sacrifices because he wants to be honored like the most high, or because he wishes to conceal his frauds or trap the simple minded more easily and destroy them more damnably.

The Thirteenth: That by such arts the holy prophets and other saints had the power of their prophecies and performed miracles or dispelled demons. This is an error and blasphemy.

The fourteenth: That God by himself with no intermediary or with the good angels revealed such maleficia to holy persons. This is an error and blasphemy.

The fifteenth: That such arts can force the free will of a person to bend to the will or desire of another person. This is an error, and to try to do this is impious and nefarious.

The sixteenth: That for that reason the aforesaid arts are good and from god and that it is permissible to practice them. For their observance sometimes or often comes about that which the observers seek or say because good sometimes comes from them. This is an error

The seventeenth: That such arts truly force or compel demons and not vice versa. That the demons pretend they are forced in order to seduce men. This is an error.

The eighteenth: That such arts and irreligious rites, lots, charms, and conjurings of demons, mockeries, and other malefices in the service of demons never produce any effect. This is an error. For god does sometimes permit such things to happen as was obvious with the magicians of pharaoh or several other places; either because the practitioners or devotees have been given over to reprobate misunderstandings for their bad faith or other terrible sins and deserve to be deceived.

The Nineteenth: That good angels may be confined within stones and that they consecrate images or vestments or do other things included in these arts. This is an error.

The twentieth: That the blood of a little girl or a goat, or another animal, or the lamb skin, or the pelt of a lion, or other such things have the power to attract or repel demons by the exercise of such demons.

The twenty-first: That images made of bronze, lead, or gold, or white or red wax, or other material; when baptized and exorcised and consecrated, or rather execrated, as prescribed by these arts have tremendous powers on those days of the year described in the books of such arts. This is an error in faith, in natural philosophy, and in true astronomy.

The twenty-second: That it is not idolatry and infidelity to practice such arts and believe in them. This is an error.

The twenty-third: That some demons are good demons, others are omniscient, and still others neither saved nor damned. This is an error.

The twenty-fourth: That the offerings of smoke performed in such activities turn into spirits or that the smoke offerings are due to the same spirits. This is an error.

The twenty-fifth: That one demon is king of the east, and mainly by his merit another is king of the west. Another of the north; another of the south. This is an error.

The twenty-sixth: That the sphere of intelligence that moves the heavens flows in the rational soul in the same manner that the body of heavens flows into the human body. This is an error.

The twenty-seventh: That the heavens without any intermediary produces our intellectual thoughts and our interior intentions, and that such thoughts and intentions can be known through some magical tradition and that it is permissible to certify the pronouncements made in this way. This is an error.

The twenty-eighth: That such magical arts of any kind can lead us to a vision of the divine essence or the spirit of the saints. This is an error.

These determinations have been enacted by us and our deputies after prolonged and frequent examination. They have been agreed upon by our general congregation at Paris called this morning and especially for this purpose at the church of Saint Mathurin on the 19th day of the month of September in the year of our lord 1398. We have witnessed the proceedings by the seal of the aforesaid faculty appended to these documents.