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[Official] Upcoming changes to the library. Discuss.

An official request, or post by staff acting with authority.

zagan

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One can find this forum by just looking for 'book x pdf' on google - and that can cause trouble
and even upset some great minds that give all their time and heart to create great works for all of us.

That being said, working out a way to find the truly rare works is still in the mists,
one can simply not incentivize ppl to scan expensive rare books etc, as this would create some weird piracy cult?
Its reasons like that why holdall runs into issues, vs having something restricted.
Ideally people should find WF for the discussions and topics.

The books can be found in various places if people go digging, archive, annas etc.

One thing i would suggest is separating the book discussions and reviews or at least moving
threads like SkullTraill's Recommended Occult Reading and Reference.
 

Asteriskos

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I'm totally behind everything you have just proposed, and might suggest that you go so far as to hide the contents of the library from those who are not members, if that is at all possible, as well as restricting access under the new rules.
I never thought it was a good idea having the library visible to the general public, it might be better to have a 'hint" to lurkers that there is one though, but only for "members in good standing"! If the public can't See all the good stuff that's available (tutorials, articles, Q&A's. et al) to learn from by reading some posts, would they be of value to the forum or just dead weight?
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I never thought it was a good idea having the library visible to the general public, it might be better to have a 'hint" to lurkers that there is one though, but only for "members in good standing"! If the public can't See all the good stuff that's available (tutorials, articles, Q&A's. et al) to learn from by reading some posts, would they be of value to the forum or just dead weight?
Let me add that what made my mind up to join was some high quality reading on subjects like the PGM, and other "practical" kinds of stuff. I don't think I even looked at the library for the first several months at all.
 
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Morell

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On one side, I agree...

On other side, I myself found this place because I was looking for a book and this was only place with the pdf file that appeared on the search engine and seemed available for getting it.
 

AlfrunGrima

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Although I found the library first, it were the discussions why I started to join WF. WF did meet my desire for quality, 99 percent of the forums don't.

And as for the beginners: in the tutorial section already exists so much information. That is already a gold mine. As a community we can actively link to that section in the beginners topics and/or encourage to start to search over there. I see some people doing this, but we all can do that... And it is a good thing to not have a separate beginner section. Otherwise there are a lot of members not reading and posting in those topics anymore because of the idea that it is for beginners. But it are often the beginners who post nice questions to think again.
 

Robert Ramsay

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On one side, I agree...

On other side, I myself found this place because I was looking for a book and this was only place with the pdf file that appeared on the search engine and seemed available for getting it.
I'm glad that you didn't just take the book and run :)

This seems like a sensible set of rules. Not so much 'keeping people out' as 'allowing the wrong sort of people to keep themselves out' :)
 

Ziran

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the primary goal is to do that via discussions as a forum

Noted

I can see that there are thousands of people per year just joining WF to download books and contribute nothing

If so, making it slightly more difficult to access the library for the purpose of furthering the primary goal is likely harmless to the community.
 

ElectricEgregore

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On one side, I agree...

On other side, I myself found this place because I was looking for a book and this was only place with the pdf file that appeared on the search engine and seemed available for getting it.

But you're so active anyways you will never have anything to worry about frendo 🧛‍♂️
 

Ziran

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WF's ultimate goal of being a community that focuses on bringing more people into the occult, and bringing more occult knowledge to as many people as possible

The ultimate goal is to take the "occult" out of "occult knowledge"?

Im not sure I agree with this principle. If the ritual, craft, or practice requires communion with something mysterious and concealed, sharing those techniques and concepts, carte-blanche, with any who are willing to discuss it, is counter-productive and harmful to the uninitiated aspirant. It makes their journey harder.
 

Sh4d0w

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Ultimately, I believe that such measures are unlikely to truly prevent library leaks. Even if access is restricted, new accounts will still be created — if not by real people, then by bots. They’ll simply “sit around,” post meaningless messages, and wait until access to the library opens so they can download whatever they want. It’s enough to write one “hello” post, wait a week — and there you go, full access to download books. Honestly, I’m not convinced this will be very effective.


On one hand, I understand the intention — protection and filtering. On the other hand — how well will it work in practice?
Take me, for example. I registered recently, and it was precisely the library that caught my attention, along with the friendly and supportive atmosphere of the community. Here, you can really get advice, direction for development, and even personal support (which I also needed). Moreover, I was looking for literature that was simply impossible to find online — not because it didn’t exist, but because I didn’t even know what exactly to look for or where. On WF, for the first time, I found a structured library with reliable, verified authors.


But the library doesn’t exclude the forum’s existence (that very question: “forum and library, or library and forum?” — to me, it makes no difference, because the goal remains the same: we gain knowledge from the library and then discuss it on the forum. It doesn’t matter which comes first — conversation or reading. The point is that the process flows both ways. So there’s no need to fear that the forum will “turn into a library” — it already isn’t one, thanks to the many living topics, discussions, and occult sections).


I understand that there will probably be a wave of criticism, but let’s be realistic. After these restrictions are introduced, there will be a mass registration surge just to reach the library, and the introduction threads will be flooded with meaningless posts — just so “it counts.” Some of those may come from real people, but most will be from bots. They’ll post once, wait a week, get access — and then download everything and re-upload it elsewhere. We can’t be protected from that, and honestly, we never will be. Anyone could do the same.


The risks remain under any system. People register, fulfill the formalities, download what they need — and disappear forever. Their goal is complete.
It seems we need a different approach — not just a post-count system, but a trust system. For example, a new member could go through a certain “evaluation”: an experienced member or moderator could observe their activity, draw conclusions, and manually grant or revoke access to the library if abuse is detected.
Alternatively, long-standing, trusted members could vote to grant access to a newcomer — a kind of community recommendation. Such a personalized, “living” system would make much more sense and be far safer than automated checks of formal criteria.


This would naturally motivate people to communicate in order to earn trust. The more they write, the better the community can understand who they really are. Often, people reveal their true nature at this stage — through their writing style, topics, or reactions in discussions. But of course, no one is completely protected here either: someone can earn trust, gain library access — and then disappear again into “eternal silence.”
To avoid that, it would make sense to add restrictions for inactive users: if someone hasn’t logged in or shown activity for a long time, their access to the library should be temporarily suspended. We need a living audience, not a graveyard of empty accounts.


If we’re being honest, how many truly active members are there on WF right now? Twenty, thirty, maybe fifty. The rest are silent. It’s those active members who actually form the community — their voices and trust should matter when granting access. Newcomers, meanwhile, need to be evaluated more carefully — the risk of trolls or even AI-generated accounts with unclear intentions is simply too high.


In this sense, the current restrictions lose meaning: formally they exist, but they’re easy to bypass. Yes, it looks like a step forward, but will it bring real benefit? Most likely, it will only increase the number of “empty” accounts and meaningless posts.
If the goal is to boost registration — sure, it will work. But what next? The person will get access — and then silence again. The forum will become filled with “dead” profiles.


That’s why I’d suggest considering a trust scale or a reputation-based voting system. Let respected members “recommend” newcomers, helping them earn access faster. This way, we can distinguish those who genuinely want to learn and contribute from those who only came to download files.


We should also remember the external factor: if books begin leaking into open sources, users will naturally go there — where no verification is required. In that sense, limiting access could even backfire against WF itself.


Now, about your words, Skulltaill.
You said: “I don’t want WF to turn into a file-sharing site.” But in essence, WF has long been much more than that. There are discussions, threads, and living conversations here. The forum is already far beyond mere file sharing — it’s precisely the combination of community and library that makes it unique.


You also mentioned: “Thousands of people register just to download books without contributing.”
But where’s the guarantee that this will change after the new restrictions? People will still be able to register, wait out the time limit, download what they need, and leave. The process just becomes longer and more frustrating — with the same outcome.


Yes, there’s hope that some will stay for the discussions, but you can’t force someone to be active. Especially if they’re introverted or simply prefer reading to posting.


As for a character limit in posts — that’s a questionable idea. Some people write briefly but to the point; others prefer to elaborate, like me. The main thing is meaning, not length. If you enforce a minimum, you’ll just end up with long, empty posts written only for formality’s sake.


In the end, newcomers won’t be discussing practice or magic — they’ll just “chat about nothing” to gain access.
And once they realize that occultism requires deep inner work, not superficial reading, they’ll simply leave — after flooding the forum with a dozen meaningless messages.


These are my thoughts. The idea of organizing library access makes sense and is logical in principle, but the technical execution raises doubts. It’s important not just to impose restrictions, but to build a trust-based system — one that strengthens the community instead of creating the illusion of activity.
 

Morell

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In the end, newcomers won’t be discussing practice or magic — they’ll just “chat about nothing” to gain access.
And once they realize that occultism requires deep inner work, not superficial reading, they’ll simply leave — after flooding the forum with a dozen meaningless messages.
Some really good points. Especially about accounts that just want the access. I will add that these accounts that will be just for access the books now won't be without posts - problem for deleting them in the future.

As for a character limit in posts — that’s a questionable idea. Some people write briefly but to the point; others prefer to elaborate, like me. The main thing is meaning, not length. If you enforce a minimum, you’ll just end up with long, empty posts written only for formality’s sake.
Especially on music threads where entire posts are single video...

We should also remember the external factor: if books begin leaking into open sources, users will naturally go there — where no verification is required. In that sense, limiting access could even backfire against WF itself.
Honestly, how many of us got here because of looking for community to debate occult with? Would want to see a poll on that.
 

Sh4d0w

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To genuinely prevent library leaks, I think simply hiding download links or locking access entirely isn’t an effective solution. If someone really wants a book, they can often find it somewhere else online — or at least that’s what it seems. But in my case, I couldn’t find any of these books anywhere on the internet. I searched extensively, and there were no working links, no verified sources, nothing close to what’s collected here. Only on this forum could I find real, organized access to reliable materials. That’s what makes this library valuable — it’s not just a random file archive but a structured and trustworthy resource.


For guests, the library should remain completely locked — it shouldn’t even be visible to people who haven’t registered. After registration, users can see the library — book titles, authors, and categories — but the download links themselves remain hidden. To unlock them, users need to earn Trust Points.


This way, a new member first joins the community, starts interacting, asking questions, and contributing. As they participate, they begin to earn Trust Points. Once they accumulate enough, they can unlock access to a specific book or section and download it. This creates a clear progression: guests have no access at all, registered users can explore the structure of the library, and active, trusted members can actually use it.


This approach links access to contribution. You don’t just register to download files — you engage with the forum and earn the right to explore further. Often, during discussions, users might realize that another book or topic fits their interests better based on advice from others. That helps newcomers make more informed decisions about what to read and study next.


Trust Points would serve as the main system for balancing access and participation. They can be earned through meaningful activity: writing thoughtful posts, sharing experiences, leaving short reviews on books, asking or answering questions, and maintaining online presence by reading and engaging with threads. The more consistent and constructive someone is, the more Trust Points they earn. These points can then be spent to unlock downloads — either individual files or entire sections of the library.


This creates a fair system where access is based on genuine involvement. If someone stops being active for a long period, their points could gradually decay or freeze, which would naturally filter out inactive accounts and bots.


In the end, each download becomes tied to personal participation rather than just registration. The library remains protected, while the forum becomes more active and self-sustaining. It’s a balanced solution that encourages communication, consistent engagement, and mutual responsibility without unnecessary restrictions. What do you think?
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Some really good points. Especially about accounts that just want the access. I will add that these accounts that will be just for access the books now won't be without posts - problem for deleting them in the future.

Honestly, how many of us got here because of looking for community to debate occult with? Would want to see a poll on that.
I’ve been thinking about what you said, and you’re right — manually cleaning up inactive or access-only accounts would be almost impossible for a human moderator to handle in the long run. That’s why I think this process should be automated. If a user stops logging in and shows no activity for a certain amount of time, the system itself could automatically delete or suspend the account. Real members who participate won’t even notice it, but it would quietly keep the forum clean.


Of course, that brings up a technical question: what happens to the user’s posts and reactions after such deletion? If an inactive account is removed, should all of its messages disappear as well? And if a topic created by that user gets deleted, what happens to the replies of others who posted there — do their messages stay but become invisible, or do they remain visible under a “deleted user” tag? The same goes for reactions, likes, and other interactions. It’s something that would need to be handled carefully to avoid breaking thread continuity or losing valuable discussions.


And you also made me think about something else — the real reason people come here. How many actually join because they want to communicate, share, and learn together? And how many are here just for the library, or maybe just to feel part of a certain atmosphere — “I’m hanging out with magicians, witches, and vampires,” but without really doing any work or contribution?


Maybe it’s worth running a poll about this — to see what people honestly think WF represents to them. Is it mainly about discussions and community, or about knowledge and resources, or maybe just a place for people to spend time and feel part of something? It would be interesting to see what the results show.
 
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