Hi guest! As you can see, the new Wizard Forums has been revived, and we are glad to have you visiting our site! However, it would be really helpful, both to you and us, if you registered on our website! Registering allows you to see all posts, and make posts yourself, which would be great if you could share your knowledge and opinions with us! You could also make posts to ask questions!
One can find this forum by just looking for 'book x pdf' on google - and that can cause trouble
and even upset some great minds that give all their time and heart to create great works for all of us.
That being said, working out a way to find the truly rare works is still in the mists,
one can simply not incentivize ppl to scan expensive rare books etc, as this would create some weird piracy cult?
Its reasons like that why holdall runs into issues, vs having something restricted.
Ideally people should find WF for the discussions and topics.
The books can be found in various places if people go digging, archive, annas etc.
One thing i would suggest is separating the book discussions and reviews or at least moving
threads like SkullTraill's Recommended Occult Reading and Reference.
I'm totally behind everything you have just proposed, and might suggest that you go so far as to hide the contents of the library from those who are not members, if that is at all possible, as well as restricting access under the new rules.
I never thought it was a good idea having the library visible to the general public, it might be better to have a 'hint" to lurkers that there is one though, but only for "members in good standing"! If the public can't See all the good stuff that's available (tutorials, articles, Q&A's. et al) to learn from by reading some posts, would they be of value to the forum or just dead weight?
I never thought it was a good idea having the library visible to the general public, it might be better to have a 'hint" to lurkers that there is one though, but only for "members in good standing"! If the public can't See all the good stuff that's available (tutorials, articles, Q&A's. et al) to learn from by reading some posts, would they be of value to the forum or just dead weight?
Let me add that what made my mind up to join was some high quality reading on subjects like the PGM, and other "practical" kinds of stuff. I don't think I even looked at the library for the first several months at all.
On other side, I myself found this place because I was looking for a book and this was only place with the pdf file that appeared on the search engine and seemed available for getting it.
Although I found the library first, it were the discussions why I started to join WF. WF did meet my desire for quality, 99 percent of the forums don't.
And as for the beginners: in the tutorial section already exists so much information. That is already a gold mine. As a community we can actively link to that section in the beginners topics and/or encourage to start to search over there. I see some people doing this, but we all can do that... And it is a good thing to not have a separate beginner section. Otherwise there are a lot of members not reading and posting in those topics anymore because of the idea that it is for beginners. But it are often the beginners who post nice questions to think again.
On other side, I myself found this place because I was looking for a book and this was only place with the pdf file that appeared on the search engine and seemed available for getting it.
On other side, I myself found this place because I was looking for a book and this was only place with the pdf file that appeared on the search engine and seemed available for getting it.
WF's ultimate goal of being a community that focuses on bringing more people into the occult, and bringing more occult knowledge to as many people as possible
The ultimate goal is to take the "occult" out of "occult knowledge"?
Im not sure I agree with this principle. If the ritual, craft, or practice requires communion with something mysterious and concealed, sharing those techniques and concepts, carte-blanche, with any who are willing to discuss it, is counter-productive and harmful to the uninitiated aspirant. It makes their journey harder.
Ultimately, I believe that such measures are unlikely to truly prevent library leaks. Even if access is restricted, new accounts will still be created — if not by real people, then by bots. They’ll simply “sit around,” post meaningless messages, and wait until access to the library opens so they can download whatever they want. It’s enough to write one “hello” post, wait a week — and there you go, full access to download books. Honestly, I’m not convinced this will be very effective.
On one hand, I understand the intention — protection and filtering. On the other hand — how well will it work in practice?
Take me, for example. I registered recently, and it was precisely the library that caught my attention, along with the friendly and supportive atmosphere of the community. Here, you can really get advice, direction for development, and even personal support (which I also needed). Moreover, I was looking for literature that was simply impossible to find online — not because it didn’t exist, but because I didn’t even know what exactly to look for or where. On WF, for the first time, I found a structured library with reliable, verified authors.
But the library doesn’t exclude the forum’s existence (that very question: “forum and library, or library and forum?” — to me, it makes no difference, because the goal remains the same: we gain knowledge from the library and then discuss it on the forum. It doesn’t matter which comes first — conversation or reading. The point is that the process flows both ways. So there’s no need to fear that the forum will “turn into a library” — it already isn’t one, thanks to the many living topics, discussions, and occult sections).
I understand that there will probably be a wave of criticism, but let’s be realistic. After these restrictions are introduced, there will be a mass registration surge just to reach the library, and the introduction threads will be flooded with meaningless posts — just so “it counts.” Some of those may come from real people, but most will be from bots. They’ll post once, wait a week, get access — and then download everything and re-upload it elsewhere. We can’t be protected from that, and honestly, we never will be. Anyone could do the same.
The risks remain under any system. People register, fulfill the formalities, download what they need — and disappear forever. Their goal is complete.
It seems we need a different approach — not just a post-count system, but a trust system. For example, a new member could go through a certain “evaluation”: an experienced member or moderator could observe their activity, draw conclusions, and manually grant or revoke access to the library if abuse is detected.
Alternatively, long-standing, trusted members could vote to grant access to a newcomer — a kind of community recommendation. Such a personalized, “living” system would make much more sense and be far safer than automated checks of formal criteria.
This would naturally motivate people to communicate in order to earn trust. The more they write, the better the community can understand who they really are. Often, people reveal their true nature at this stage — through their writing style, topics, or reactions in discussions. But of course, no one is completely protected here either: someone can earn trust, gain library access — and then disappear again into “eternal silence.”
To avoid that, it would make sense to add restrictions for inactive users: if someone hasn’t logged in or shown activity for a long time, their access to the library should be temporarily suspended. We need a living audience, not a graveyard of empty accounts.
If we’re being honest, how many truly active members are there on WF right now? Twenty, thirty, maybe fifty. The rest are silent. It’s those active members who actually form the community — their voices and trust should matter when granting access. Newcomers, meanwhile, need to be evaluated more carefully — the risk of trolls or even AI-generated accounts with unclear intentions is simply too high.
In this sense, the current restrictions lose meaning: formally they exist, but they’re easy to bypass. Yes, it looks like a step forward, but will it bring real benefit? Most likely, it will only increase the number of “empty” accounts and meaningless posts.
If the goal is to boost registration — sure, it will work. But what next? The person will get access — and then silence again. The forum will become filled with “dead” profiles.
That’s why I’d suggest considering a trust scale or a reputation-based voting system. Let respected members “recommend” newcomers, helping them earn access faster. This way, we can distinguish those who genuinely want to learn and contribute from those who only came to download files.
We should also remember the external factor: if books begin leaking into open sources, users will naturally go there — where no verification is required. In that sense, limiting access could even backfire against WF itself.
Now, about your words, Skulltaill.
You said: “I don’t want WF to turn into a file-sharing site.” But in essence, WF has long been much more than that. There are discussions, threads, and living conversations here. The forum is already far beyond mere file sharing — it’s precisely the combination of community and library that makes it unique.
You also mentioned: “Thousands of people register just to download books without contributing.”
But where’s the guarantee that this will change after the new restrictions? People will still be able to register, wait out the time limit, download what they need, and leave. The process just becomes longer and more frustrating — with the same outcome.
Yes, there’s hope that some will stay for the discussions, but you can’t force someone to be active. Especially if they’re introverted or simply prefer reading to posting.
As for a character limit in posts — that’s a questionable idea. Some people write briefly but to the point; others prefer to elaborate, like me. The main thing is meaning, not length. If you enforce a minimum, you’ll just end up with long, empty posts written only for formality’s sake.
In the end, newcomers won’t be discussing practice or magic — they’ll just “chat about nothing” to gain access.
And once they realize that occultism requires deep inner work, not superficial reading, they’ll simply leave — after flooding the forum with a dozen meaningless messages.
These are my thoughts. The idea of organizing library access makes sense and is logical in principle, but the technical execution raises doubts. It’s important not just to impose restrictions, but to build a trust-based system — one that strengthens the community instead of creating the illusion of activity.
In the end, newcomers won’t be discussing practice or magic — they’ll just “chat about nothing” to gain access.
And once they realize that occultism requires deep inner work, not superficial reading, they’ll simply leave — after flooding the forum with a dozen meaningless messages.
Some really good points. Especially about accounts that just want the access. I will add that these accounts that will be just for access the books now won't be without posts - problem for deleting them in the future.
As for a character limit in posts — that’s a questionable idea. Some people write briefly but to the point; others prefer to elaborate, like me. The main thing is meaning, not length. If you enforce a minimum, you’ll just end up with long, empty posts written only for formality’s sake.
Especially on music threads where entire posts are single video...
We should also remember the external factor: if books begin leaking into open sources, users will naturally go there — where no verification is required. In that sense, limiting access could even backfire against WF itself.
To genuinely prevent library leaks, I think simply hiding download links or locking access entirely isn’t an effective solution. If someone really wants a book, they can often find it somewhere else online — or at least that’s what it seems. But in my case, I couldn’t find any of these books anywhere on the internet. I searched extensively, and there were no working links, no verified sources, nothing close to what’s collected here. Only on this forum could I find real, organized access to reliable materials. That’s what makes this library valuable — it’s not just a random file archive but a structured and trustworthy resource.
For guests, the library should remain completely locked — it shouldn’t even be visible to people who haven’t registered. After registration, users can see the library — book titles, authors, and categories — but the download links themselves remain hidden. To unlock them, users need to earn Trust Points.
This way, a new member first joins the community, starts interacting, asking questions, and contributing. As they participate, they begin to earn Trust Points. Once they accumulate enough, they can unlock access to a specific book or section and download it. This creates a clear progression: guests have no access at all, registered users can explore the structure of the library, and active, trusted members can actually use it.
This approach links access to contribution. You don’t just register to download files — you engage with the forum and earn the right to explore further. Often, during discussions, users might realize that another book or topic fits their interests better based on advice from others. That helps newcomers make more informed decisions about what to read and study next.
Trust Points would serve as the main system for balancing access and participation. They can be earned through meaningful activity: writing thoughtful posts, sharing experiences, leaving short reviews on books, asking or answering questions, and maintaining online presence by reading and engaging with threads. The more consistent and constructive someone is, the more Trust Points they earn. These points can then be spent to unlock downloads — either individual files or entire sections of the library.
This creates a fair system where access is based on genuine involvement. If someone stops being active for a long period, their points could gradually decay or freeze, which would naturally filter out inactive accounts and bots.
In the end, each download becomes tied to personal participation rather than just registration. The library remains protected, while the forum becomes more active and self-sustaining. It’s a balanced solution that encourages communication, consistent engagement, and mutual responsibility without unnecessary restrictions. What do you think?
Some really good points. Especially about accounts that just want the access. I will add that these accounts that will be just for access the books now won't be without posts - problem for deleting them in the future.
Honestly, how many of us got here because of looking for community to debate occult with? Would want to see a poll on that.
I’ve been thinking about what you said, and you’re right — manually cleaning up inactive or access-only accounts would be almost impossible for a human moderator to handle in the long run. That’s why I think this process should be automated. If a user stops logging in and shows no activity for a certain amount of time, the system itself could automatically delete or suspend the account. Real members who participate won’t even notice it, but it would quietly keep the forum clean.
Of course, that brings up a technical question: what happens to the user’s posts and reactions after such deletion? If an inactive account is removed, should all of its messages disappear as well? And if a topic created by that user gets deleted, what happens to the replies of others who posted there — do their messages stay but become invisible, or do they remain visible under a “deleted user” tag? The same goes for reactions, likes, and other interactions. It’s something that would need to be handled carefully to avoid breaking thread continuity or losing valuable discussions.
And you also made me think about something else — the real reason people come here. How many actually join because they want to communicate, share, and learn together? And how many are here just for the library, or maybe just to feel part of a certain atmosphere — “I’m hanging out with magicians, witches, and vampires,” but without really doing any work or contribution?
Maybe it’s worth running a poll about this — to see what people honestly think WF represents to them. Is it mainly about discussions and community, or about knowledge and resources, or maybe just a place for people to spend time and feel part of something? It would be interesting to see what the results show.
Even if I benefited already from the library as a new member I think more rules are totally justified,
for the start that is a good idea - and quiet generously so - I'm not well versed in all the mechanics behind such a forum,
but for the protection of this space it would maybe even make sense to make it even stricter/ more private and develop
some ideas on how to find the sweet spot on the way.
One can find this forum by just looking for 'book x pdf' on google - and that can cause trouble
and even upset some great minds that give all their time and heart to create great works for all of us.
That being said, working out a way to find the truly rare works is still in the mists,
one can simply not incentivize ppl to scan expensive rare books etc, as this would create some weird piracy cult?
We all love the feature, and it helps a lot in many cases - and still - what we put into something is part of what we get out.
How many books hoarded, how little worked with - eliminating choice is one if not the best way to focus.
Same logic with training anything else - you pay the gym - you force yourself to go for it.
You touch the premium paper - you little hairs stand up
Its reasons like that why holdall runs into issues, vs having something restricted.
Ideally people should find WF for the discussions and topics.
The books can be found in various places if people go digging, archive, annas etc.
One thing i would suggest is separating the book discussions and reviews or at least moving
threads like SkullTraill's Recommended Occult Reading and Reference.
Definitely this would mainly affect the book shares + requests sections. Sorry, I need to edit the OP to clarify this. Thanks. Book discussions would remain unchanged, unless there's some reason for it to be included as well (if people just spam book requests there).
I never thought it was a good idea having the library visible to the general public, it might be better to have a 'hint" to lurkers that there is one though, but only for "members in good standing"! If the public can't See all the good stuff that's available (tutorials, articles, Q&A's. et al) to learn from by reading some posts, would they be of value to the forum or just dead weight?
Post automatically merged:
Let me add that what made my mind up to join was some high quality reading on subjects like the PGM, and other "practical" kinds of stuff. I don't think I even looked at the library for the first several months at all.
So far it's still fine that the book shares are visible to the public. Yes it attracts some crazy authors and such, but I am not worried about anything legal at this point. As I have mentioned in the Library Manifesto thread, WF does not break any laws in the jurisdiction it's in.
On other side, I myself found this place because I was looking for a book and this was only place with the pdf file that appeared on the search engine and seemed available for getting it.
And as for the beginners: in the tutorial section already exists so much information. That is already a gold mine. As a community we can actively link to that section in the beginners topics and/or encourage to start to search over there. I see some people doing this, but we all can do that... And it is a good thing to not have a separate beginner section. Otherwise there are a lot of members not reading and posting in those topics anymore because of the idea that it is for beginners. But it are often the beginners who post nice questions to think again.
Yeah, I'm fairly convinced that the only people it harms are people who don't contribute anything to WF... so... they don't really tip the scales for me.
Im not sure I agree with this principle. If the ritual, craft, or practice requires communion with something mysterious and concealed, sharing those techniques and concepts, carte-blanche, with any who are willing to discuss it, is counter-productive and harmful to the uninitiated aspirant. It makes their journey harder.
What if the goal is to demystify and unconceal "something mysterious and concealed" which would then reduce the risk to newbies. I don't believe that information is dangerous. Only that uninformed actions are dangerous. Which is why the goal of WF has always been to inform. However, I think this is a topic for another thread/different discussion so as not to go off topic!
You don't. The goal is not protection and filtering. I'm not someone who inherently believes in restricting knowledge and information for the purpose of exclusivity or elitism. I myself have uploaded 90% of my own original contributions to WF's library to ZLib and by extension anna's etc.
I thought I was extremely clear about this in the OP. The reason I am doing this, and why the requirements are so relaxed and easy to attain is that I'm doing this simply to give people coming here for books a gentle nudge to also stay and contribute to the open content on the site.
High value content on the open forum > high value content in a PDF linked on the forum.
So there’s no need to fear that the forum will “turn into a library” — it already isn’t one, thanks to the many living topics, discussions, and occult sections).
I've never had a problem with that. I'm never going to be able to stop leaks, and that's never been my goal. The more this material is uploaded and mirrored around the world, the better, imho.
In this sense, the current restrictions lose meaning: formally they exist, but they’re easy to bypass. Yes, it looks like a step forward, but will it bring real benefit?
If the goal is to boost registration — sure, it will work. But what next? The person will get access — and then silence again. The forum will become filled with “dead” profiles.
Sometimes, just the 10 posts from a person is enough useful content that will live on WF forever, potentially fueling discussions months later. As I've said before, the goal here isn't to ensure everyone who's ever downloaded a book from WF remains active for life. It is just a slight tip of the scales to ensure there is more quality content on WF per registered member than there is now (there already is plenty, but a little more could greatly benefit WF in the long run).
It's just a rebalance. Even just a few posts per member will generate permanent content on WF that can attract more people who want to engage with content vs people who want to download something and leave.
That’s why I’d suggest considering a trust scale or a reputation-based voting system. Let respected members “recommend” newcomers, helping them earn access faster. This way, we can distinguish those who genuinely want to learn and contribute from those who only came to download files.
That's something for the future. It's not something I can implement any time soon, whereas the change I've described in this thread can be implemented quickly. This is just a first step.
You also mentioned: “Thousands of people register just to download books without contributing.”
But where’s the guarantee that this will change after the new restrictions? People will still be able to register, wait out the time limit, download what they need, and leave. The process just becomes longer and more frustrating — with the same outcome.
Yes, there’s hope that some will stay for the discussions, but you can’t force someone to be active. Especially if they’re introverted or simply prefer reading to posting.
As for a character limit in posts — that’s a questionable idea. Some people write briefly but to the point; others prefer to elaborate, like me. The main thing is meaning, not length. If you enforce a minimum, you’ll just end up with long, empty posts written only for formality’s sake.
Don't worry about what moderators have to do, you aren't one. The first people I approached with this idea were the moderators of this forum, and I won't let them be overburdened by WF. At the end of the day all moderators on WF are volunteers and are never expected to put WF over anything important in their lives.
Just because it isn't broke for you... lmao. I'm trying to improve something that can be better. If it works, it works, if it doesn't it doesn't have to stay. If you contribute to WF, this doesn't change anything for you. If you don't... well...
Another piece of context. When I say "rebalance the scales" I mean this. When I first rebooted WF, in order to get more people to join, I hardcore focused on the library as a selling point. I uploaded books to various other sites with a WF watermark, and I shared links to WF book shares on reddit. The reasoning behind this is more complicated than I can explain in this thread, but long story short, the previous owner did irreparable damage to WF's SEO, and this method was one of the few guaranteed ways I could ensure and inflow of new users to the early WF.
But now that WF has grown quite a bit, I feel it's right to shift the focus to gaining on-site content. This plan is designed to help with that. Don't worry too much about technicalities and what could go wrong. As always, anything and everything that goes wrong on WF is my fault and my fault alone. Not the staff, not you, the members. Me. I am to blame for everything that goes wrong on WF.
So trust me when I say, I am doing this for the best, and I have thought of every single cookie-cutter "but ppl will spam" potential pitfall here, and I am ready to handle them, and if me and the staff team can not handle it, I will simply reverse this decision. The potential upside here is too good to simply not try.
Another piece of context. When I say "rebalance the scales" I mean this. When I first rebooted WF, in order to get more people to join, I hardcore focused on the library as a selling point. I uploaded books to various other sites with a WF watermark, and I shared links to WF book shares on reddit. The reasoning behind this is more complicated than I can explain in this thread, but long story short, the previous owner did irreparable damage to WF's SEO, and this method was one of the few guaranteed ways I could ensure and inflow of new users to the early WF.
But now that WF has grown quite a bit, I feel it's right to shift the focus to gaining on-site content. This plan is designed to help with that. Don't worry too much about technicalities and what could go wrong. As always, anything and everything that goes wrong on WF is my fault and my fault alone. Not the staff, not you, the members. Me. I am to blame for everything that goes wrong on WF.
So trust me when I say, I am doing this for the best, and I have thought of every single cookie-cutter "but ppl will spam" potential pitfall here, and I am ready to handle them, and if me and the staff team can not handle it, I will simply reverse this decision. The potential upside here is too good to simply not try.
one way to reverse the incentive for low quality posts would be to make access based on reaction score rather than total number of posts. you may need to limit who can react to prevent people from registering multiple accounts with the sole intent of boosting the reaction score of a single account, but that sort of reaction gang behavior would be relatively easy to detect
also when you say posts do you mean starting new discussion threads or does every contribution to a thread count as a post?
The library is Great, but it's not what caused me to register!
