Hi guest! As you can see, the new Wizard Forums has been revived, and we are glad to have you visiting our site! However, it would be really helpful, both to you and us, if you registered on our website! Registering allows you to see all posts, and make posts yourself, which would be great if you could share your knowledge and opinions with us! You could also make posts to ask questions!
But an abrahamic, islamic, magician, a havass, said that on a forum: god didn't create the hell to punishment. He created it like heaven, a place. But the hell's dweller's (demons etc) frequance is low. But heaven's (angels and god etc) is high. So, after died, if a person got low frequance during his or her lifetime, that person goes to the hell. But if he or she has high frequance, that person goes to the heaven.
I personally don't want to be too invested in Abrahamic traditions myself. I prefer just seeing it like nature. I say all that because I think that completely stopping discussion about heaven, heII, and all other manner of Abrahmic concepts will actuaIIy let these concepts bite back.
It would be nice to discuss other things beside an Abrahamic framework since its everywhere but completely stopping discussing it might let these concepts do something worse. It would let them fester at least to my mind.
Which brings me back to heII. HeII I think is only scary to me atleast when I try to completely deny it as an idea. Shut it out of mind and hide from it. Even how its seen in most places though I don't think I lived a life that warrants it. I think if these concepts exist somehow I'd go to medium purgatory place. Even still when I push it completely out of mind it makes it scarier and bigger than it probably is.
For one the question of heII brings up what you do in the worst of circumstances. And when I think on it I realize there's stiII things people might be able to do and it makes these Abrahamic concepts less bigger in my mind. It makes it feel like I can move on just talking about it. Unfortunately I think by completely stopping conversation on it it could retroactively make these concepts bigger and scarier than they are. Talking about it could help moving onto to other frameworks and I personally kind of want to move on and talking about I think can help that.
Not to mention peopIe still practice it and how big it is. Maybe by talking about it others that practice can have more heaIing reintreprations of the source material or understand it more. In fact a lot of Abrahamic reIigions might have misconceptions about what its even about and thus perpetuate harm by not talking about it.
I do agree though that it would be nice to see more variety here beside Abrahmic frameworks.
Post automatically merged:
Thought I will add on its understandable if you personally don't want to talk about it. I do since talking about it helps me move on from this framework that was ever present in cuIture.
I think HeII is then stagnation. Never being able to move forward with your life or move on to something else. Life to me is all about adapting, changing, and I think the ultimate heIIish scenario would be forever stagnating and never being able to change.
Hell is kind of stupid in my opinion. It is barely mentioned in the Bible, and so much of the imagery associated with it comes from Dante that to me its clear its been made up. It also open so many cans of worms within theological discussions that I wonder why so many Christians bother with it.
Why would an all loving God allow Hell to exist?
If God makes you choose between worshipping him or eternal punishment, do you even really have a choice? That's like saying a shop assistant has a genuine choice between giving up all the money in the till or getting shot by a robber.
Has any human committed a serious enough crime on earth to warrant eternal torture? I would argue that even some of earth's most terrible people dont deserve eternal punishment, meanwhile people get sent to Hell for way less (being an athiest, being gay, lying, disrespecting your mom etc.)
How can we suffer torture without a body?
Hell is often described as an absence of God. If God is everything, then is Hell just the void? Doesn't sound that bad tbh.
How does time work in Hell?
I would argue that anything becomes a Hell if you do it long enough. Eating ben and jerrys is great but I wouldnt want to do it for eternity.
Lots more arguments against Hell but here are a few that ive wondered about ever since i was a kid.
i see the opposite, people being quick to demonise angels and go straight for devils or fallen angels. The truth is the primordial beings (not fallen angels but often called demons), respect power but dont really like the fallen angels, except that for a while the fallen angels were dominating here. Angels are one of the main topics misinformed everywhere, such as the occult, religion and many places. People also dont like that i demonise pseudo science or fake science. When you can see what angels see and learn from them, its easy to see bs pitched with pseudoscience. Many in the occult talk about frequencies but they're not related to you in any supernatural way, basically the entire topic about frequencies, total bs.
I know and understand the science and logic behind everything in the occult to know what people should and shouldnt be doing. Take astrology for example, its a bit like using the friend of a friend privilege, might as well go direct if you can.
But yes religions tend to chain people given their actual origin which is also mentioned in the demonic bible. Basically you can pick religion or you can pick the devil directly, they're both the same.
You are doing it yourself - "Basically you can pick religion or you can pick the devil directly, they're both the same".
Who's this devil guy? You are still spouting Abrahamic b/s, and they are by no means both the same.
Hell is kind of stupid in my opinion. It is barely mentioned in the Bible, and so much of the imagery associated with it comes from Dante that to me its made up.
Yeah I think it definitely either misrepresented or Dante in the 1500s and a lot of other poets got influenced by the norse concept if he'II that it was an add on that wasn't originally part of abrahmaic frameworks then wormed its way in.
How does time work in Hell?
I would argue that anything becomes a Hell if you do it long enough. Eating ben and jerrys is great but I wouldnt want to do it for eternity.
To bring up the enternity thing I kind of agree anything done for a long enough becomes its own torment since there's no change or variety that comes along with it.
I think thats why despite being kind of morbid the concept of death kind of comforts me.
There's the actual concept of not having to live forever which I think is nice despite some people wanting to Iive forever I think it would just traumatize me and turn me into someone I don't recognize. Then theres the more metaphorical one and thats change. It allows change to occur so life does not become stagnant and the having to do something forever doesn't happen. Everything changes and thats nice to me.
So I guess on the topic of heII that concept also doesn't scare me since eternity is probably not even a real thing and thats might partly be because of death.
Personally, I've heard many perspectives on the subject of hell. However, my personal belief on it comes from a book called The Diabolicon. The gist is pretty much that it is basically what you make it to be and that since it is away from god you must make peace in the chaos by yourself. This is pretty much Chaos magick when you think about it knowing that it pretty much makes hell what you believe it is.
Hell is the christian concept! If you christian, you have right. For you is hell reallity! For other magician´s not! This is very dangerous idea for you and for your afterlife!
Personally, I've heard many perspectives on the subject of hell. However, my personal belief on it comes from a book called The Diabolicon. The gist is pretty much that it is basically what you make it to be and that since it is away from god you must make peace in the chaos by yourself. This is pretty much Chaos magick when you think about it knowing that it pretty much makes hell what you believe it is.
I've actually pondered this question a lot, and honestly, it has always felt like hell is more of a state of mind than a physical place.
People can be living in hell right here on Earth, just like they can experience what feels like heaven. To me, hell is any state of being where you're consumed by suffering, fear, guilt, anger, or despair.
At the same time, who would want to stay there?
You could also look at it symbolically. Sometimes you have to journey through the fire to discover who you really are. In that sense, you have to go through your own version of hell before you can come out the other side as the person you're meant to become.
It's definitely a loaded question, and I don't think there's one right answer. If I had to describe it, I'd say hell is a state of mind, a state of being, or even a frequency that we can tap into depending on where our emotions, thoughts, and energy are focused.
Here are notes I took according to the Gnostic perspective:
The Subterranean / Underworld Realms (The Demonic Dungeons)
Amenti (Amente / Hades): The intermediate underworld realm where ordinary uninitiated souls undergo post-mortem judgment and cleansing before being sent back into reincarnation (metangismos).
The Chaos: The abyssal, formless dark realm where Authades created the lion-headed power (Yaldabaoth / Arregos) that lured and stripped Pistis Sophia of her light.
The Outer Darkness (To Skotos To Exōteron): The absolute lowest, most severe region of punishment. Depicted as a monstrous dragon biting its own tail (an Ouroboros) encompassing 12 dungeons of chastisement, each ruled by a beast-faced arch-demon. Reserved for dark sorcerers, tyrannical rulers, and irredeemable souls.
Hopefully it can serve as a starting point for those who wish to dive deeper.
You are doing it yourself - "Basically you can pick religion or you can pick the devil directly, they're both the same".
Who's this devil guy? You are still spouting Abrahamic b/s, and they are by no means both the same.
I've beaten this argument before, yes i know both sides are the same, but thats because the angels on the religious side arent angels or rather the religions falsely claim on angels. Currently many teachings on angels are inaccurate.
But practitioners typically demonise religion and head straight for the devil directly. both cases can ruin your life.
I know the angels directly and work with them not in the manner taught by the occult. Recently the group in power has changed so no longer do either side have any advantages or power over another. Some beings said to be in the LHP arent. Angels have a problem of many pretenders, but also angels dont see humans as worthy enough to sanctify themselves with, granted there is a way to verify a being, but it relies on one of the golden dawn rituals but this one specifically either doesnt exist yet or is just too lengthy compared to the lbrp.
Through angels you can know god directly, and god is nothing like mentioned by religion. to understand science, time and more for example.
I don’t think that hell exists, nor heaven as we imagine it. I think that “there” is something different: an existence made of energy and information.
If a person was negative by nature, spread a great deal of negative emotion, harmed others, stole, killed, and was cursed by his victims, then in the afterlife they will be surrounded by those emotions, by that negative information. They may not even realize that they have died.
Suicides, for example, may be unable to understand that they are no longer alive for a very long time—decades or even centuries. They relive the moment of their suicide over and over again and experience all the emotions that overwhelmed them at the time. That is their own personal “hell.”
it's here, I guess. Hell could be loneliness. it could be indifference. it could be extreme poverty. I try to find beauty and happiness in the little things. and be kind where I can. I don't know about the actual afterlife. I sort of hope it's this magical place where you can be a boy again and play with toys and outside it can just be your ideal place where you felt the happiest. and I think you get to rest there, for a while. until you decide to maybe return to earth, like reincarnate.
Well, honestly. My philosophy has changed a lot since i posted that. But, i can say at this point that hell is pretty much a mindset. We all start there, and then we move up. It is like cleaning the trash off of a desk so you can finally use it properly.
Well, honestly. My philosophy has changed a lot since i posted that. But, i can say at this point that hell is pretty much a mindset. We all start there, and then we move up. It is like cleaning the trash off of a desk so you can finally use it properly.
Yes, absolutely. But i am glad I did. I learned a lot from my mistakes. Satanism was the first thing i ever pursued esoterically. It led me to just have an edgy ego. Now i focus more on the actual attainment side of things. I have not even thought of that pantheon in a few years up until this point. I am mostly into the Hermetic and Egyptian currents these days.
My past pursuits were not the brightest. But they were not in vain either. I learned a lot about the nature of the self and other such things.
Yes, absolutely. But i am glad I did. I learned a lot from my mistakes. Satanism was the first thing i ever pursued esoterically. It led me to just have an edgy ego. Now i focus more on the actual attainment side of things. I have not even thought of that pantheon in a few years up until this point. I am mostly into the Hermetic and Egyptian currents these days.
My past pursuits were not the brightest. But they were not in vain either. I learned a lot about the nature of the self and other such things.
Satanism is certainly something to be, hopefully, outgrown. But hell as a messy desk? Surely you must see that, next to cleaning it, there is the option of setting it on fire.
Actually, there are archetypal Hells and Heavens. When you reach them through a conscious OBE, you have to adjust your frequency: lowering it allows you to enter Hell, and raising it allows you to enter Heaven. Earth exists in the middle range. God is above Heaven, at the upper limit of the highest frequency.
I’m not sure why I wanted to visit Hell, probably simple curiosity. In one Hell that is reserved for people who had pets, the inhabitants believe everything is normal. They happily play with their pets and feel comforted by them. But if you look closely at what is actually happening, their pets are demons consuming their limbs. These people are unaware of their true situation, they are unknowingly feeding demons.
it can just be your ideal place where you felt the happiest. and I think you get to rest there, for a while. until you decide to maybe return to earth, like reincarnate.
