Who Was Jesus, truly?

[Ohana]

I'm looking more into Jesus's story and its the funniest thing ever historically speaking. I was raised under a rock so the Jesus being this important figure I know about but just doesn't click for me.

Anyway his name was common back in the day apperently. And Galilee was also kind of impoverished but also had a lot of foreign trade I think?

That would be like in today's terms if some man named Josh or John or something who came from lets say (I'll go by states terms but just plug the equalivant to what I'm saying to which region your from) a poor part of New Jersey.

So Josh from New Jersey just preaches a bit dies then helps build the foundation for a world religion. And then Josh from New Jersey is also apperently the son of the most high being ever? And also Josh along with I'm betting a lot of other people (Essenes other religeons) reshape the modern world religions?

Damn Josh from New Jersey okay. Thats cool.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I'm looking more into Jesus's story and its the funniest thing ever historically speaking. I was raised under a rock so the Jesus being this important figure I know about but just doesn't click for me.

Anyway his name was common back in the day apperently. And Galilee was also kind of impoverished but also had a lot of foreign trade I think?

That would be like in today's terms if some man named Josh or John or something who came from lets say (I'll go by states terms but just plug the equalivant to what I'm saying to which region your from) a poor part of New Jersey.

So Josh from New Jersey just preaches a bit dies then helps build the foundation for a world religion. And then Josh from New Jersey is also apperently the son of the most high being ever? And also Josh along with I'm betting a lot of other people (Essenes other religeons) reshape the modern world religions?

Damn Josh from New Jersey okay. Thats cool.

As Michael Moorcock puts it in 'Behold the Man' - "Imagine what kind of religion it would have been if he hadn't come back"

 

[Ohana]

As Michael Moorcock puts it in 'Behold the Man' - "Imagine what kind of religion it would have been if he hadn't come back"

Idk what Josh be or the religion would be. Maybe his soul would get reincarnated and star in the beloved show Drake & Josh. I don't know though.

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2026

(Again that is mostly said jokingly)

 

[Firetree]

The fictional Gospel Jesus having a historical but minor local celebrity Jesus in its amalgam doesn't make Gospel Jesus more real than Alexander or Alexander less real.

Of course .

That was a comment directed to someone that was claiming Jesus was more real than Alexander - I should have quoted it for context ( these add on 'no bumping' posts being sent back to one's last entry are still confusing me ) .

Though both historical persons can be said to have undergone some similar syncretic myth building techniques.

Yep . Some places in Central Asia ( eg Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan ) still have wandering mythic story tellers ( I have seen a film of it , with assistants that have huge 'flip card' paintings as backdrops that they change for each scene, music, sound effects , etc . ) ; nearly all their stories are the fantastic and over the top adventures of 'Iskander' .... he did this ... he did that !

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2026

...

As for the idea of Jesus being the "Son of Yahweh" maybe. But this also complicates things when you ask: What happened to El Elyon, the original creator God of the Hebrews?

How do these shifting divine figures play into the development of a religion that eventually becomes one of the largest in the world? I

Great question ! Why was it so successful ??? ( I need to do more research ! )

But back then it shifted into Monotheism and the creation of Judaism by Josiah and his scribes . It was a huge political scam that somehow worked , but we know now , the whole area ( 'Judah ' and Jerusalem and 'The Temple ' , not the separate north kingdom of Israel ) was actually more like Egypt than anything else . Along the King's Highway ( Egypt to West Assyria up the east coast of the Med . it was common practice to allow whatever religion to use the temples along the way , for various God's , even the one at Jerusalem - it was Josiah that changed it to 'Jehovah only ' in the Jerusalem temple . It was a hotch potch of Gods. cross overs and developments before that .

Not only did it create Judaism , it helped spawn Christianity and Islam .

t raises some uncomfortable questions, especially in a religion that emphasizes the role of Jesus as the central divine dude.
Christianity, from its very inception, is filled with contradictions. The modern image of a feminized, gentle Jesus, meek, humble, and endlessly forgiving, is not what a 1st-century Jewish man in Roman-occupied Judea would have recognized. It’s fascinating to see how religion evolves with cultural shifts, how the figure of Jesus morphs over time to fit the needs of different eras.

He certainly 'gets around ' ;

 

[frater_pan]

I hope this is permitted here : from another forum, a list of 1st century or so miracle workers, most Jewsih but some not. The list begins with the Apostle Paul and also notes other apostles but not by name and then continues:

1. Honi the Circle Drawer (Jewish charismatic)
2. Hanan (Jewish charismatic; grandson of Honi and probably an elder contemporary of Jesus)
3. Abba Hilkiah (also a grandson of Honi and Jewish charismatic rainmaker)
4. Hanina ben Dosa (Jewish charismatic)
5. Eleazar (Jewish exorcist)
6. Simon Magus (magician)
7. Apollonius of Tyana (neo-Pythagorean)
8. Augustus (emperor)
9. Vespasian (emperor)

This is followed by supporting material;
[2] Josephus, Ant. 14:22-9. mTaan. 3:8; bTaan. 23a; Genesis Rabbah 13:7

[3] bTaan. 23b

[4] bTaan. 23ab

[5] mBer. 5:1; tBer. 2:20; yBer. 9a; bBer 33a; bBer. 34b; yBer. 9d; bTaan. 24b; bBer. 61b; bHag. 14a; mSot. 9:15; mAb. 3:9-12.

[6] Josephus, Ant. 8:46-8

[7] Acts 8:9–24. Justin, 1 Apologia 1:26. Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 2:13

[8] Philostratus, Life of Apollonius

[9] Philo, The Embassy, To Gaius 144-145

[10] Tacitus, Histories 4.81-82; Suetonius, Divine Vestpasian, Lives of the Caesars 7.2; Dio Cassius, Roman History 65.8

Some helpful books:

• Miracles in Greco-Roman Antiquity by Cotter
• Medicine, Miracle, and Magic in New Testament Times by Kee
• Magic, Witchcraft, and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds by Ogden
• Who's Who in the Age of Jesus by Vermes
• "Jesus and Charismatic Judaism" in Jesus the Jew by Vermes

I haven't found a better list yet but there must be some know miracle workers from the period that are less well known. If we can identify them then we can expand the list and possibly get better insight into the well-attested phenomena.

 

[FireBorn]

Of course .

That was a comment directed to someone that was claiming Jesus was more real than Alexander - I should have quoted it for context ( these add on 'no bumping' posts being sent back to one's last entry are still confusing me ) .



Yep . Some places in Central Asia ( eg Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan ) still have wandering mythic story tellers ( I have seen a film of it , with assistants that have huge 'flip card' paintings as backdrops that they change for each scene, music, sound effects , etc . ) ; nearly all their stories are the fantastic and over the top adventures of 'Iskander' .... he did this ... he did that !

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2026

Great question ! Why was it so successful ??? ( I need to do more research ! )

But back then it shifted into Monotheism and the creation of Judaism by Josiah and his scribes . It was a huge political scam that somehow worked , but we know now , the whole area ( 'Judah ' and Jerusalem and 'The Temple ' , not the separate north kingdom of Israel ) was actually more like Egypt than anything else . Along the King's Highway ( Egypt to West Assyria up the east coast of the Med . it was common practice to allow whatever religion to use the temples along the way , for various God's , even the one at Jerusalem - it was Josiah that changed it to 'Jehovah only ' in the Jerusalem temple . It was a hotch potch of Gods. cross overs and developments before that .

Not only did it create Judaism , it helped spawn Christianity and Islam .



He certainly 'gets around ' ;

Hey cool chart with the Sumerian pantheon, I see where you're going with it. Where would Asherah fit into that (Yahwehs consort before the exile)? Inanna/Ishtar or Antu aspect? Obviously not a clean syncretization, never is. What about the Chaldean aspect as well? Wasn't the Yahweh god a Chaldean storm god like Baal? Maybe the Sumerian chart is missing a few syncretized steps via different people groups???? (This topic deserves its own thread so we dont get in trouble for sidetracking too far into the Sumerian weeds)

Ever notice how magick didn't use Jesus, rather all the names of OT God and his angels, but never the JC himself which was supposed to be the source across the veil directly to Yahweh himself? I mean you'd think Jesus name would be helpful in magick instead of complex ceremonies and shit. Its the 2.0 version. Same God, same power, what gives? If the theology holds, why not upgrade? Maybe it isn't about theology at all. He is older than modern magickal systems, so age isn't the problem. Not romantic or complex enough? Hahaha homoerotic Jesus in ceremonial magick!! He did have cool robes and all. Calm down people.

Dont think we can expect a Damon Brand magickal book on just using Jesus name of power. It would be about a paragraph long lol. "The name of Jesus, the end". Human brains enjoy complexity, especially when we can move through it because we untangle it, and that reward we feel is real, not good or bad, just how our brains work.

Now that I have pissed everyone off, back to my coffee. Love you.

 

[Kepler]

Yep . Some places in Central Asia ( eg Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan ) still have wandering mythic story tellers ( I have seen a film of it , with assistants that have huge 'flip card' paintings as backdrops that they change for each scene, music, sound effects , etc . ) ; nearly all their stories are the fantastic and over the top adventures of 'Iskander' .... he did this ... he did that !

And that sort of attention keeping helps with dissemination. And maintaining memory to divine correspondences when using the stars as a backdrop for telling divine stories.

Possibly the appearance of the constellation Gemini as a couple taken as Joseph and Mary before φάτνη(M44 in Cancer) with its asses being storyboard.

Why was it so successful ???

For Jesus the superficial adornments upon a local cult figure doesn't seem adequate even with resorting to fictional accomplishments.

The political changes and syncretic cult mentality in Alexandria at the time of NT authoring provides the foundation, scholarship and opportunity for the subtextual inclusion of Caesarion as the son of god and King of Kings. The last Ptolemy providing a foundation of fame stoking interest in the then current culturally informed people that could read between the lines keeping the Ptolemaic mystery cult alive under a guise through a new religion.
At first suppressed by the state but eventually appropriated and the Caesarion aspect lost to memory.

Post automatically merged: Mar 2, 2026

 

[Firetree]

Hey cool chart with the Sumerian pantheon, I see where you're going with it. Where would Asherah fit into that (Yahwehs consort before the exile)? Inanna/Ishtar or Antu aspect? Obviously not a clean syncretization, never is. What about the Chaldean aspect as well? Wasn't the Yahweh god a Chaldean storm god like Baal? Maybe the Sumerian chart is missing a few syncretized steps via different people groups???? (This topic deserves its own thread so we dont get in trouble for sidetracking too far into the Sumerian weeds)

That chart is limited to the Yahwist and Ishmaelite traditions . I can probably track down more 'streams' that might answer your questions about other influences if a thread is made about it .

Yahweh doe not appear to have originated in Chaldea but in Arabia , ( hence the charts focus on 'Semetic origins ' ) with the nomadic people and arose in tribes associated or near Canaan ( eg Edom ) and entered as a lesser God in the Canaanite collection . He probably got a faction following there and evolved into the concept Josiah used and then the story got back written to claim he had been supreme there in ancient times ( eg Solomon's great 'Empire' and a supposed previously united kingdom of Israel and Judah ... and 'the bible ' ) .

Ever notice how magick didn't use Jesus, rather all the names of OT God and his angels, but never the JC himself which was supposed to be the source across the veil directly to Yahweh himself? I mean you'd think Jesus name would be helpful in magick instead of complex ceremonies and shit.

Yes, and that says something about the origins of western magic ... and religion ! Some have claimed that the Abramelin ritual is full of Jewish symbolism and is a Jewish rite .

Of course ; Christianity being what it was and developing a priestly control , all magic (in Jesus name ) was left up to the priest . But we always will have 'magicians ' arise and usurp that ... even in Christianity who want to do magic and cast out demons ....in Jesus' name . . . talk in tongues , have visions and altered states etc .

Its the 2.0 version. Same God, same power, what gives? If the theology holds, why not upgrade? Maybe it isn't about theology at all. He is older than modern magickal systems, so age isn't the problem. Not romantic or complex enough? Hahaha homoerotic Jesus in ceremonial magick!! He did have cool robes and all. Calm down people.

Come on Man ! I bet you can even find a tradition like that on Wizardforums !

( meaning; i is probably already happening , somewhere - 'nowadays ' ;

'' God damn modern 'magicians ' ! ''

Dont think we can expect a Damon Brand magickal book on just using Jesus name of power. It would be about a paragraph long lol. "The name of Jesus, the end". Human brains enjoy complexity, especially when we can move through it because we untangle it, and that reward we feel is real, not good or bad, just how our brains work.

Now that I have pissed everyone off, back to my coffee. Love you.

Oh ! ... Well at least someone does !

Post automatically merged: Mar 2, 2026

And that sort of attention keeping helps with dissemination. And maintaining memory to divine correspondences when using the stars as a backdrop for telling divine stories.

Possibly the appearance of the constellation Gemini as a couple taken as Joseph and Mary before φάτνη(M44 in Cancer) with its asses being storyboard.


For Jesus the superficial adornments upon a local cult figure doesn't seem adequate even with resorting to fictional accomplishments.

The political changes and syncretic cult mentality in Alexandria at the time of NT authoring provides the foundation, scholarship and opportunity for the subtextual inclusion of Caesarion as the son of god and King of Kings. The last Ptolemy providing a foundation of fame stoking interest in the then current culturally informed people that could read between the lines keeping the Ptolemaic mystery cult alive under a guise through a new religion.
At first suppressed by the state but eventually appropriated and the Caesarion aspect lost to memory.

Post automatically merged: Mar 2, 2026

Sorry . I may have made a mistake there ; I meant that comment in relation to how did Josiah's creation of Judaism become so successful, in its establishment, continuation and influence , especially religiously .

But you were right about why Christianity became successful

 

[Ohana]

Plus, I had a dream where I saw a Black Jesus and He was so awesome.

Agreed.

Of course ; Christianity being what it was and developing a priestly control , all magic (in Jesus name ) was left up to the priest . But we always will have 'magicians ' arise and usurp that ... even in Christianity who want to do magic and cast out demons ....in Jesus' name . . . talk in tongues , have visions and altered states etc .

I think I've read somewhere that Josh (Jesus) was thought to be archangel Micheal incarnated or something. Because Gaberial says that Mary is blessed with an angel. Really interesting theory. Who knows though.

Post automatically merged: Mar 7, 2026

Mystery is history. He really could have been an egregore or turned into one later.

 

[Zander]

I'm more and more inclined to think he was a magician, a very powerful one at that.

 

[System Error Message]

i dont have time to read everything but i'd like to share the historical perspective. Not religious or scripture, but what historians could confirm. The first is that jesus did exist, he was in what we know today as israel, but it was under roman rule. The romans had an elitist system which oppressed certain groups, and jesus was an activist, fighting against that through acttivism rather than military. Historically jesus believed the end to be near that there was no point in writing anything down.

Monty python the life of brian captured the point of about activism.

Another thing about jesus not having a father, this is confirmed through a genetic abnormally which meant that marriam had a DNA of Ixx . Genetic abnormalies are indeed more varied and common than people think which is why it is uncharacteristic of christianity or the bible to demonise lgbt and call it a sin.

The mystical aspects of jesus arent historically or scientifically confirmed, and much of the mythical events of the bible was indeed debunked, for example the flood didnt happen the way the bible and quran stated it did. Just like how people believed the resurrection of jesus to be real, joseph smith did the same thing when he used the story of gold writings hidden and his encounter. He could've made the whole thing up just like if you study the situation around the ressurection of jesus, it could've been made up or set up because it wasnt a common witness.

As for the bible's consistency, the books in the new testament do contradict, this is confirmed from scholars. However from the supernatural aspect, the consistency and process in how the new testament came to be is not very different from gnosticism.

 

[freakstarsh]

both a historical figure and the representation of a people and their beliefs

 

[Sapientia_Lucio_369]

I adopt the New Ager belief on Jesus, having been born a Christian and been a devout Christian, namely in the fact that he was no different than what Laozi was to the Chinese or Buddha to the Indians and Chinese, but the story of his life is something that was severely distorted. Christians can claim to hate the occult all they want, but their very Bible is RIDDLED with occult metaphors and allusions, starting from Yahweh's "wierd obsession" with the numbers 7, 14, 3 and 12. The "crucifixion" and the entire "destroy this temple and rebuild it in 3 days" was also a metaphor for when a human sheds the limitations of being a "regular human" [the "death/crucifixion"], reaches the Magnum Opus and become an immortal [ascension], also the Cross is a Saturnian symbol which isn't always maleficent, but also represents cleansing and discipline. Also let the record show, "3" shows up in the Bible...A LOT. "On the 3rd day he rose, 3 magi, 3 people crucified etc.

Hence in my opinion, Jesus showed people how to spiritually ascend and the corrupt Roman officials hated him for it and killed him. I also find it "weirdly" suspicions that the Bible has "4 Archangels" which sounds and functions a lot like the 4 Heavenly Kings of the Golden Light Sutra (as well as the 4 Demons of certain Buddhist sects, 4 Crowned Princes of Hell in Satanic religions), and the "return of Christ with 10,000 Saints" sounds a hell of a lot like the "Prophecy of 10,000 Sons of God" from the Golden Light Sutra.

If anything, his name isn't "Jesus" in any Aramaic records but something like "Yeshua", or "Joshua" meaning "God With Us".

 

[Dènye Patwon]

Some people say he was the son of God. Some people say he was God in the flesh.

According to what I read, it doesn't really make a difference. Jesus was THEE ONE.

Personally, I believe we all are of the same. It just takes figuring it out in a world that wants to crucify whatever figure is Christ like.

From what I have seen, Jesus was learning still at 12 years old. So to give a proper answer, I believe he realized he was the son of God.