Who Was Jesus, truly?

[Ohana]

I'm looking more into Jesus's story and its the funniest thing ever historically speaking. I was raised under a rock so the Jesus being this important figure I know about but just doesn't click for me.

Anyway his name was common back in the day apperently. And Galilee was also kind of impoverished but also had a lot of foreign trade I think?

That would be like in today's terms if some man named Josh or John or something who came from lets say (I'll go by states terms but just plug the equalivant to what I'm saying to which region your from) a poor part of New Jersey.

So Josh from New Jersey just preaches a bit dies then helps build the foundation for a world religion. And then Josh from New Jersey is also apperently the son of the most high being ever? And also Josh along with I'm betting a lot of other people (Essenes other religeons) reshape the modern world religions?

Damn Josh from New Jersey okay. Thats cool.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I'm looking more into Jesus's story and its the funniest thing ever historically speaking. I was raised under a rock so the Jesus being this important figure I know about but just doesn't click for me.

Anyway his name was common back in the day apperently. And Galilee was also kind of impoverished but also had a lot of foreign trade I think?

That would be like in today's terms if some man named Josh or John or something who came from lets say (I'll go by states terms but just plug the equalivant to what I'm saying to which region your from) a poor part of New Jersey.

So Josh from New Jersey just preaches a bit dies then helps build the foundation for a world religion. And then Josh from New Jersey is also apperently the son of the most high being ever? And also Josh along with I'm betting a lot of other people (Essenes other religeons) reshape the modern world religions?

Damn Josh from New Jersey okay. Thats cool.

As Michael Moorcock puts it in 'Behold the Man' - "Imagine what kind of religion it would have been if he hadn't come back"

 

[Ohana]

As Michael Moorcock puts it in 'Behold the Man' - "Imagine what kind of religion it would have been if he hadn't come back"

Idk what Josh be or the religion would be. Maybe his soul would get reincarnated and star in the beloved show Drake & Josh. I don't know though.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:49 PM

(Again that is mostly said jokingly)

 

[Firetree]

The fictional Gospel Jesus having a historical but minor local celebrity Jesus in its amalgam doesn't make Gospel Jesus more real than Alexander or Alexander less real.

Of course .

That was a comment directed to someone that was claiming Jesus was more real than Alexander - I should have quoted it for context ( these add on 'no bumping' posts being sent back to one's last entry are still confusing me ) .

Though both historical persons can be said to have undergone some similar syncretic myth building techniques.

Yep . Some places in Central Asia ( eg Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan ) still have wandering mythic story tellers ( I have seen a film of it , with assistants that have huge 'flip card' paintings as backdrops that they change for each scene, music, sound effects , etc . ) ; nearly all their stories are the fantastic and over the top adventures of 'Iskander' .... he did this ... he did that !

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:45 PM

...

As for the idea of Jesus being the "Son of Yahweh" maybe. But this also complicates things when you ask: What happened to El Elyon, the original creator God of the Hebrews?

How do these shifting divine figures play into the development of a religion that eventually becomes one of the largest in the world? I

Great question ! Why was it so successful ??? ( I need to do more research ! )

But back then it shifted into Monotheism and the creation of Judaism by Josiah and his scribes . It was a huge political scam that somehow worked , but we know now , the whole area ( 'Judah ' and Jerusalem and 'The Temple ' , not the separate north kingdom of Israel ) was actually more like Egypt than anything else . Along the King's Highway ( Egypt to West Assyria up the east coast of the Med . it was common practice to allow whatever religion to use the temples along the way , for various God's , even the one at Jerusalem - it was Josiah that changed it to 'Jehovah only ' in the Jerusalem temple . It was a hotch potch of Gods. cross overs and developments before that .

Not only did it create Judaism , it helped spawn Christianity and Islam .

t raises some uncomfortable questions, especially in a religion that emphasizes the role of Jesus as the central divine dude.
Christianity, from its very inception, is filled with contradictions. The modern image of a feminized, gentle Jesus, meek, humble, and endlessly forgiving, is not what a 1st-century Jewish man in Roman-occupied Judea would have recognized. It’s fascinating to see how religion evolves with cultural shifts, how the figure of Jesus morphs over time to fit the needs of different eras.

He certainly 'gets around ' ;

 

[frater_pan]

I hope this is permitted here : from another forum, a list of 1st century or so miracle workers, most Jewsih but some not. The list begins with the Apostle Paul and also notes other apostles but not by name and then continues:

1. Honi the Circle Drawer (Jewish charismatic)
2. Hanan (Jewish charismatic; grandson of Honi and probably an elder contemporary of Jesus)
3. Abba Hilkiah (also a grandson of Honi and Jewish charismatic rainmaker)
4. Hanina ben Dosa (Jewish charismatic)
5. Eleazar (Jewish exorcist)
6. Simon Magus (magician)
7. Apollonius of Tyana (neo-Pythagorean)
8. Augustus (emperor)
9. Vespasian (emperor)

This is followed by supporting material;
[2] Josephus, Ant. 14:22-9. mTaan. 3:8; bTaan. 23a; Genesis Rabbah 13:7

[3] bTaan. 23b

[4] bTaan. 23ab

[5] mBer. 5:1; tBer. 2:20; yBer. 9a; bBer 33a; bBer. 34b; yBer. 9d; bTaan. 24b; bBer. 61b; bHag. 14a; mSot. 9:15; mAb. 3:9-12.

[6] Josephus, Ant. 8:46-8

[7] Acts 8:9–24. Justin, 1 Apologia 1:26. Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 2:13

[8] Philostratus, Life of Apollonius

[9] Philo, The Embassy, To Gaius 144-145

[10] Tacitus, Histories 4.81-82; Suetonius, Divine Vestpasian, Lives of the Caesars 7.2; Dio Cassius, Roman History 65.8

Some helpful books:

• Miracles in Greco-Roman Antiquity by Cotter
• Medicine, Miracle, and Magic in New Testament Times by Kee
• Magic, Witchcraft, and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds by Ogden
• Who's Who in the Age of Jesus by Vermes
• "Jesus and Charismatic Judaism" in Jesus the Jew by Vermes

I haven't found a better list yet but there must be some know miracle workers from the period that are less well known. If we can identify them then we can expand the list and possibly get better insight into the well-attested phenomena.

 

[FireBorn]

Of course .

That was a comment directed to someone that was claiming Jesus was more real than Alexander - I should have quoted it for context ( these add on 'no bumping' posts being sent back to one's last entry are still confusing me ) .



Yep . Some places in Central Asia ( eg Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan ) still have wandering mythic story tellers ( I have seen a film of it , with assistants that have huge 'flip card' paintings as backdrops that they change for each scene, music, sound effects , etc . ) ; nearly all their stories are the fantastic and over the top adventures of 'Iskander' .... he did this ... he did that !

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:45 PM

Great question ! Why was it so successful ??? ( I need to do more research ! )

But back then it shifted into Monotheism and the creation of Judaism by Josiah and his scribes . It was a huge political scam that somehow worked , but we know now , the whole area ( 'Judah ' and Jerusalem and 'The Temple ' , not the separate north kingdom of Israel ) was actually more like Egypt than anything else . Along the King's Highway ( Egypt to West Assyria up the east coast of the Med . it was common practice to allow whatever religion to use the temples along the way , for various God's , even the one at Jerusalem - it was Josiah that changed it to 'Jehovah only ' in the Jerusalem temple . It was a hotch potch of Gods. cross overs and developments before that .

Not only did it create Judaism , it helped spawn Christianity and Islam .



He certainly 'gets around ' ;

Hey cool chart with the Sumerian pantheon, I see where you're going with it. Where would Asherah fit into that (Yahwehs consort before the exile)? Inanna/Ishtar or Antu aspect? Obviously not a clean syncretization, never is. What about the Chaldean aspect as well? Wasn't the Yahweh god a Chaldean storm god like Baal? Maybe the Sumerian chart is missing a few syncretized steps via different people groups???? (This topic deserves its own thread so we dont get in trouble for sidetracking too far into the Sumerian weeds)

Ever notice how magick didn't use Jesus, rather all the names of OT God and his angels, but never the JC himself which was supposed to be the source across the veil directly to Yahweh himself? I mean you'd think Jesus name would be helpful in magick instead of complex ceremonies and shit. Its the 2.0 version. Same God, same power, what gives? If the theology holds, why not upgrade? Maybe it isn't about theology at all. He is older than modern magickal systems, so age isn't the problem. Not romantic or complex enough? Hahaha homoerotic Jesus in ceremonial magick!! He did have cool robes and all. Calm down people.

Dont think we can expect a Damon Brand magickal book on just using Jesus name of power. It would be about a paragraph long lol. "The name of Jesus, the end". Human brains enjoy complexity, especially when we can move through it because we untangle it, and that reward we feel is real, not good or bad, just how our brains work.

Now that I have pissed everyone off, back to my coffee. Love you.

 

[Kepler]

Yep . Some places in Central Asia ( eg Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan ) still have wandering mythic story tellers ( I have seen a film of it , with assistants that have huge 'flip card' paintings as backdrops that they change for each scene, music, sound effects , etc . ) ; nearly all their stories are the fantastic and over the top adventures of 'Iskander' .... he did this ... he did that !

And that sort of attention keeping helps with dissemination. And maintaining memory to divine correspondences when using the stars as a backdrop for telling divine stories.

Possibly the appearance of the constellation Gemini as a couple taken as Joseph and Mary before φάτνη(M44 in Cancer) with its asses being storyboard.

Why was it so successful ???

For Jesus the superficial adornments upon a local cult figure doesn't seem adequate even with resorting to fictional accomplishments.

The political changes and syncretic cult mentality in Alexandria at the time of NT authoring provides the foundation, scholarship and opportunity for the subtextual inclusion of Caesarion as the son of god and King of Kings. The last Ptolemy providing a foundation of fame stoking interest in the then current culturally informed people that could read between the lines keeping the Ptolemaic mystery cult alive under a guise through a new religion.
At first suppressed by the state but eventually appropriated and the Caesarion aspect lost to memory.