Your ideal form of government?

[JGVDRG]

What's with eradicating unemployment. Unemployment is fine as long as needs are met.

NEETing's only allowed in the final stage.

 

[Xenophon]

What's with eradicating unemployment. Unemployment is fine as long as needs are met.

Good-breeding dictates that one ask who is meeting my needs and how happy s/he is with that duty. Good sense dictates that I ask after the effect of leisure on its beneficiaries. See especially Hegel's master/slave dialectic for a gloomy prognosis facing those at pleasurable loose ends.

 

[Khoren_]

Good-breeding dictates that one ask who is meeting my needs and how happy s/he is with that duty. Good sense dictates that I ask after the effect of leisure on its beneficiaries. See especially Hegel's master/slave dialectic for a gloomy prognosis facing those at pleasurable loose ends.

I mean, I never said someone else should provide those necessities for others....

 

[Xenophon]

I mean, I never said someone else should provide those necessities for others....

Generally "unemployment" means someone needs a job. If he has independent means, we say that. E.g., Harry Potter with his trust fund was not unemployed; if Hagrid burned down the nearby woods, he probably would be.

 

[Khoren_]

Generally "unemployment" means someone needs a job. If he has independent means, we say that. E.g., Harry Potter with his trust fund was not unemployed; if Hagrid burned down the nearby woods, he probably would be.

Generally, unemployment means someone isn't being paid in cash. You can still labor for food, shelter, and other things without being "employed" in the traditional sense. If I provide my own food, live off the grid, and "own" a house, but don't have a job, I'm "unemployed".

 

[Xenophon]

Generally, unemployment means someone isn't being paid in cash. You can still labor for food, shelter, and other things without being "employed" in the traditional sense. If I provide my own food, live off the grid, and "own" a house, but don't have a job, I'm "unemployed".

If you provide for you, I'd call it wisely self-employed. But I see your point. OK, we can use that definition. Maybe "Selsus"? Self-Sustaining Unemployed.

 

[JGVDRG]

Generally, unemployment means someone isn't being paid in cash. You can still labor for food, shelter, and other things without being "employed" in the traditional sense. If I provide my own food, live off the grid, and "own" a house, but don't have a job, I'm "unemployed".

I didn't meant unemployment as a condition of someone who doesn't have a formal job. A dude in the beach who does some cool craft out of coconuts is not unemployed in my concept. A prostitute is not unemployed. An independent game developer isn't unemployed. One does not need to produce for the industry to have a job. In my ideal government, shitty jobs would be done by prisoners as a punishment. But I didn't specify that, so I apologize.

Let me rephrase that: Would focus on eradicating mendicancy.
Putting beggars and crackheads to qualify at anything other than begging and getting them a home. Rectify things before they get violent, thus, preventing their inevitable execution. I think it's perfectly doable, as long as I'm the Supreme Honorable People's Commander.

 

[Xenophon]

I didn't meant unemployment as a condition of someone who doesn't have a formal job. A dude in the beach who does some cool craft out of coconuts is not unemployed in my concept. A prostitute is not unemployed. An independent game developer isn't unemployed. One does not need to produce for the industry to have a job. In my ideal government, shitty jobs would be done by prisoners as a punishment. But I didn't specify that, so I apologize.

Let me rephrase that: Would focus on eradicating mendicancy.
Putting beggars and crackheads to qualify at anything other than begging and getting them a home. Rectify things before they get violent, thus, preventing their inevitable execution. I think it's perfectly doable, as long as I'm the Supreme Honorable People's Commander.

That's actually a problem with many forms of government: El Supremo's minions put to work eradicating social ills turn careerist and fixing the problem becomes, instead, an interminable "process." I recall a Malcolm Goodwell piece about Head Start program intending to help kids with education and life-prospects. Even progressive ol' Malcolm saw something was amiss about families "celebrating" two or three generations in the program. He didn't connect the dots, though, and see that "addressing a crisis" can afford the over-educated unemployable long term careers at public expense.

Whatever one says about Mao Zedong, his lads cleaned up China's opium problem in the PRC's early days. Maybe his methods are worth a look.

 

[JGVDRG]

That's actually a problem with many forms of government: El Supremo's minions put to work eradicating social ills turn careerist and fixing the problem becomes, instead, an interminable "process."

Interestingly, I was kind of visualizing some form of endless cycle while I was idealizing it, lol.

My possible solution for this is to gradually deflate the government along with the dissolution of regional problems, transferring public agents to minister independent hippie communities all around the world, where they would help people with basic technologies and sciences (hydraulics, electronics, clean energy, permaculture, engineering, etc.). They would receive some sort of indoctrination (as a graduation for time in service) in order to let their people develop an organic sense of society. Much like a massive cult, in which the government ranks also graduate in an initiatory occultist groups. In their last moments as a public agent they would be trained to not become greedy, they would be stoned out of their minds, meditating and expanding consciousness almost all the time. Like a training for departure, to perpetuate some type of peace & love "tribalism" powered by their technical knowledge.
Things could go wrong? Yes. Very much. But I honestly don't think there's a better form of government than this one.

 

[Xenophon]

Interestingly, I was kind of visualizing some form of endless cycle while I was idealizing it, lol.

My possible solution for this is to gradually deflate the government along with the dissolution of regional problems, transferring public agents to minister independent hippie communities all around the world, where they would help people with basic technologies and sciences (hydraulics, electronics, clean energy, permaculture, engineering, etc.). They would receive some sort of indoctrination (as a graduation for time in service) in order to let their people develop an organic sense of society. Much like a massive cult, in which the government ranks also graduate in an initiatory occultist groups. In their last moments as a public agent they would be trained to not become greedy, they would be stoned out of their minds, meditating and expanding consciousness almost all the time. Like a training for departure, to perpetuate some type of peace & love "tribalism" powered by their technical knowledge.
Things could go wrong? Yes. Very much. But I honestly don't think there's a better form of government than this one.

Maybe worth a try. But I am against any arrangement that does not have the effect of drastically lowering population. The quicker the better, so long as biosphere is not destroyed. We're squeezing the earth like Dionysius his last handful of grapes. Time to pay Gaia our badly past-due balance.

 

[JGVDRG]

Maybe worth a try. But I am against any arrangement that does not have the effect of drastically lowering population. The quicker the better, so long as biosphere is not destroyed. We're squeezing the earth like Dionysius his last handful of grapes. Time to pay Gaia our badly past-due balance.

Fully agree with you. Well, that's why the first stage is zero tolerance police state dystopia.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

My ideal form of Government would only work for a city-state, as I believe we would be happier as a people united through local community rather than a giant world circus, and it would only work really well if other cities would follow the same procedure. This would be dangerous every time the Roman/Nazi conquest bug comes along, but an awareness of our tendency towards colonialism and conquering like nature's tendency towards hurricanes beforehand could be the foundation of an alliance of these city-states

I found Plato's Republic to have a few good ideas with city building, mostly with his version of the caste system and the Guardians. Some people should not be politicians or enforces of the law simply because they are not good people; rather than a caste system enforced from birth position, it is decided through the schooling, which will be focused on unity, community, self inquiry, and then transition to a trade school, apprenticeship, or higher education. People may change their paths, but some should be barred depending on the person's present temperament of soul (Plato wrote some people have Lead souls, others Silver, and a few Gold, these soul-qualities alone determine how much power their receive.)

Everyone will be educated and aware of the city's unique needs, then choose a way in which they will serve the city's needs in harmony with their passion. They will also undergo initiation, much as Plato suggested (he called it a grand lie), they will be told their lives were but a dream of the Earth, and now they are reborn, new and awake. Psychologically this rebirth is needed to make a healthy non-ego-obsessed individual. Perhaps everyone will be told outright of their role as an actor in the Divine game of Lila.

City-states themselves will understand that their survival depends on harmony and mutual benefit, otherwise they will deteriorate to the level of the Ancient World, where cities were conquered and subsumed endlessly with the flow of empires. Trade will ensure everyone has what they need and prevent needless land acquisition that historically has caused nearly every war on earth (a desire for luxury and more land).

The politics of it would be a council, rulership corrupts and too much power on one person'll break them, but too many will slow things down, perhaps three who will be elevated from the Guardian role to the role of Philosipher-King. The rulers themselves won't be allowed wealth or property outside of what's given to them to avoid distraction from their duty (it needs to be seen as a sacred role to rule, similar to being a priest or a monk, it is a position of self-sacrifice where the ruler looses their own identity and becomes the state, with two others they will also be less subject to madness or meloncholy.). Self interest is the poison that blackens the heart, extra care has to go in to avoid ego trips; if this isn't cared for than we'll just have a circus. The ruler must have the grail.

Basic city politics from there, you could say it's like a series of united states but without a Federal level, but each follows a similar guiding principle. The divine esteem of self-freedom and harmony will cut down most issues and restrictive laws, the focus on community and understanding will erase bigotry if done right and not in an Amish kind of Authoritarian way. There needs to be a conscious development of good vibes, Hippie freedom and love, not God's commandments and Authority. Life is a game, love is a gift. The community heals itself, helps itself.

I know that this would be unlikely, but the thread is called ideal form of Government after all. Everyone has a path, everyone is part of the community, even the homeless serve a role - I noticed digs at them earlier. Mendicants are to be monastic and allowed their street-living status, they'd be treated similar to the forest dwelling caste in Hinduism. Some people are not of this world and cannot participate in it, it will only cause chaos to chain them down to it and deny their dharma. Let a mendicant mendicate

Post automatically merged: Aug 5, 2024

I would also like to throw in that I agree with the quote from Grahm Handcock "Every politician should be required to take Ayahuasca ten times before taking office."

 

[Xenophon]

My ideal form of Government would only work for a city-state, as I believe we would be happier as a people united through local community rather than a giant world circus, and it would only work really well if other cities would follow the same procedure. This would be dangerous every time the Roman/Nazi conquest bug comes along, but an awareness of our tendency towards colonialism and conquering like nature's tendency towards hurricanes beforehand could be the foundation of an alliance of these city-states

I found Plato's Republic to have a few good ideas with city building, mostly with his version of the caste system and the Guardians. Some people should not be politicians or enforces of the law simply because they are not good people; rather than a caste system enforced from birth position, it is decided through the schooling, which will be focused on unity, community, self inquiry, and then transition to a trade school, apprenticeship, or higher education. People may change their paths, but some should be barred depending on the person's present temperament of soul (Plato wrote some people have Lead souls, others Silver, and a few Gold, these soul-qualities alone determine how much power their receive.)

Everyone will be educated and aware of the city's unique needs, then choose a way in which they will serve the city's needs in harmony with their passion. They will also undergo initiation, much as Plato suggested (he called it a grand lie), they will be told their lives were but a dream of the Earth, and now they are reborn, new and awake. Psychologically this rebirth is needed to make a healthy non-ego-obsessed individual. Perhaps everyone will be told outright of their role as an actor in the Divine game of Lila.

City-states themselves will understand that their survival depends on harmony and mutual benefit, otherwise they will deteriorate to the level of the Ancient World, where cities were conquered and subsumed endlessly with the flow of empires. Trade will ensure everyone has what they need and prevent needless land acquisition that historically has caused nearly every war on earth (a desire for luxury and more land).

The politics of it would be a council, rulership corrupts and too much power on one person'll break them, but too many will slow things down, perhaps three who will be elevated from the Guardian role to the role of Philosipher-King. The rulers themselves won't be allowed wealth or property outside of what's given to them to avoid distraction from their duty (it needs to be seen as a sacred role to rule, similar to being a priest or a monk, it is a position of self-sacrifice where the ruler looses their own identity and becomes the state, with two others they will also be less subject to madness or meloncholy.). Self interest is the poison that blackens the heart, extra care has to go in to avoid ego trips; if this isn't cared for than we'll just have a circus. The ruler must have the grail.

Basic city politics from there, you could say it's like a series of united states but without a Federal level, but each follows a similar guiding principle. The divine esteem of self-freedom and harmony will cut down most issues and restrictive laws, the focus on community and understanding will erase bigotry if done right and not in an Amish kind of Authoritarian way. There needs to be a conscious development of good vibes, Hippie freedom and love, not God's commandments and Authority. Life is a game, love is a gift. The community heals itself, helps itself.

I know that this would be unlikely, but the thread is called ideal form of Government after all. Everyone has a path, everyone is part of the community, even the homeless serve a role - I noticed digs at them earlier. Mendicants are to be monastic and allowed their street-living status, they'd be treated similar to the forest dwelling caste in Hinduism. Some people are not of this world and cannot participate in it, it will only cause chaos to chain them down to it and deny their dharma. Let a mendicant mendicate

Post automatically merged: Aug 5, 2024

I would also like to throw in that I agree with the quote from Grahm Handcock "Every politician should be required to take Ayahuasca ten times before taking office."

You lost me with the bit about ayahuasca. A cultural tradition of ayahuasca use does seem to benefit most users, according to some few studies. Making it a ticket-punch procedure for aspiring politicos is rather more questionable. Besides there are other---arguably superior---paths to spiritual development. Say those of the original Knights Templar, Tibetan lamas, Zen monks.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Say those of the original Knights Templar, Tibetan lamas, Zen monks.

It provides a visceral experience of unity and likely undeniable firsthand proof that there exists more than this world, that this world's goods are not to be squabbled over / hoarded, etc. It's at least to help the politician be less ego-centric.

Knights, Lamas, and Monks all spend decades training for that role, I'm just trying to be practical here, my city needs a mayor, the last one was carbombed

 

[Xenophon]

It provides a visceral experience of unity and likely undeniable firsthand proof that there exists more than this world, that this world's goods are not to be squabbled over / hoarded, etc. It's at least to help the politician be less ego-centric.

Knights, Lamas, and Monks all spend decades training for that role, I'm just trying to be practical here, my city needs a mayor, the last one was carbombed

Could be. Like I said, folks in a tradition of ayahuasca use seem to grow spiritually, according to studies.

Of course, close onto a dozen ayahuasca adventures in short span might be a questionable start to holding any dangerous political office.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Could be. Like I said, folks in a tradition of ayahuasca use seem to grow spiritually, according to studies.

Of course, close onto a dozen ayahuasca adventures in short span might be a questionable start to holding any dangerous political office.

Give them two weeks to get over it and if they are mentally broken they didn't have the mettle to be in my ideal city anyway #Exiled

 

[Xenophon]

Give them two weeks to get over it and if they are mentally broken they didn't have the mettle to be in my ideal city anyway #Exiled

I suppose that's a good question for any latter-day Lawgiver: exile, re-education camps, or liquidation? It's getting harder and harder to find islands of exile in an overconnected and globalized world. Liquidation (how mealy-mouths say "murder") is presently out of fashion, but in the Anglophone world there have been a few cases lately where police denied they had arrested persons who had, in fact, been seen arrested. Mostly "right-wing" types, who were soon permitted to resurface. This seems to be some water-testing as to whether anyone notices disappearances. Re-education? Prominent politicians in the U.S. have floated the idea of "deprogramming." So, what's a legislator to do? Exile strikes me as most honorable.

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

My ideal form of government is basically just the American system but fixing the places where it has issues. Term limits for every position, restrictions on how much income the people in those positions can have, regulations to deal with anyone in a position that has a sudden increase in net worth that can't be backed by the income and businesses they ran before they went into office, restrictions on how one can campaign for a position, ect. Also 2nd amendment absolutism, teaching everyone basic economics as a require class, and 2 years of mandatory military service out of high school.

The idea is to more-or-less write things up to prevent the main issues that the US system has as well as properly educate the people on subjects that are sticking points the US is currently dealing with (people who don't understand basic economics voting for socialst/communist-style policies), and the mandatory military service would have some benefits in fostering nationalism and self-responsibility in the people.

 

[Xenophon]

My ideal form of government is basically just the American system but fixing the places where it has issues. Term limits for every position, restrictions on how much income the people in those positions can have, regulations to deal with anyone in a position that has a sudden increase in net worth that can't be backed by the income and businesses they ran before they went into office, restrictions on how one can campaign for a position, ect. Also 2nd amendment absolutism, teaching everyone basic economics as a require class, and 2 years of mandatory military service out of high school.

The idea is to more-or-less write things up to prevent the main issues that the US system has as well as properly educate the people on subjects that are sticking points the US is currently dealing with (people who don't understand basic economics voting for socialst/communist-style policies), and the mandatory military service would have some benefits in fostering nationalism and self-responsibility in the people.

The fact that the people do not understand is no historical accident. It is the product of several decades deliberate dumbing down of education. As Wyndham Lewis wrote back in the 30's, "the human model is...a standardized Peter Pan who learns nothing and forgets everything, a convenient phonograph for the parrot cries of the hour...(this) must be the ultimate result, if indeed it has not already happened." Likewise, why is "immigration" (the illegal alienazation of the West) an issue? Because importing and registering to vote people who know neither the language nor the culture of their new land provides the powers with malleable menschenstoff with which to manfacture an "electoral mandate." In short, we are long past the point of reforming anything.

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

In short, we are long past the point of reforming anything.

I'm well aware of that. I was talking about when we rebuild after everything finally collapses.