Portrait Of A Mage

[Pyrokar]

Well, like what can anyone respond when you hit them with God :'D

It's LITERALLY true, what you said, he is the top magician but it's hard to build on that without risking a perma ban in the hot springs below
In any discussion on the occult you can drop God on them like it's Exodia and it's game over.
Like, i don't have any counter maybe someone else does. So what i meant by lazy is like you went for the kill right off the bat, straight in the jugular
Give me a visualization, description, what would a person top magician be like according to you, how they move interact what they do type of thing

And yeah Prospero is my homie. Though i mentioned i dislike when someone has the spirits do all the work for them, but he actually had a
really good plan and worked on it for a long ass time, never gave up, quite a few things more, i respect him.

 

[Vandheer]

Old Republic fan eh?

 

[Pyrokar]

Old Republic fan eh?

Man, Kreia hit me so hard years later im still not recovered. Definitely a big influence on me. People like to hate but to me
she is as thug life as they come.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

A tale of two teachers....
First one was an Adept who reached out to me over a concern that I had summoned Lilith. Later when I actually tried to summon her again, he knew and rebuked me for it. Trying to get to two initiations was a no go from the universe, first time I got into an accident that took two hours for RMP to show, second time I got severely lost. He looked normal, acted normal, but you could tell he was capable and confident in his skill.

Second one was alright at first but got pushy. The moment I dared to contest something he jumped to his guns. Let's just say it ended horribly.

 

[Xenophon]

"... cannot be a player in the game." <---- Cannot? Why not? Whether or not it's fair depends on the values and principles of the "maker".



I was answering the question: "If we were to have a ranking system, what would the "strongest" most powerful magician be?" The rank of the "strongest and most powerful magician" would be God. That's the rank. In the I.T. world this is well known. The ones with "root" credentials or "Domain Administrators" are "Gods". It's just a "rank", an attainment, not a theological position.

Whose God, though? Heck, one of my neighbors as a little kid got pissed at my mom saying that Protestants and Catholics pray to the same God. I guess Neighbor Tilly's Catholic one was supposed to be badder-assed that my Mom's whey and curds Protestant one. Then you got Gods like Abrazix who ignore the entire created universe, Azathoth who's crazy-ass mad, so the answer "God" is simply too unsprcific.

Post automatically merged: Nov 7, 2023

Well, like what can anyone respond when you hit them with God :'D

It's LITERALLY true, what you said, he is the top magician but it's hard to build on that without risking a perma ban in the hot springs below
In any discussion on the occult you can drop God on them like it's Exodia and it's game over.
Like, i don't have any counter maybe someone else does. So what i meant by lazy is like you went for the kill right off the bat, straight in the jugular
Give me a visualization, description, what would a person top magician be like according to you, how they move interact what they do type of thing

And yeah Prospero is my homie. Though i mentioned i dislike when someone has the spirits do all the work for them, but he actually had a
really good plan and worked on it for a long ass time, never gave up, quite a few things more, i respect him.

It's lazy of the other guy to glibly bring in an entity whose existence is problematic (a point acknowledged even by the faithful.) Worse it's illegitimate to simply say "God" and not say whose, which one. You can scare Westerners into subconsciously-rooted fear and trembling (MAYBE.) You get much east of the Indus and they'll laugh in your face. Here, north of the Himalayas, they'll shrug.

 

[Pyrokar]

@Xenophon
The menace strikes again!
No gods. Any gods. Only Magicians.

 

[Xenophon]

@Xenophon
The menace strikes again!
No gods. Any gods. Only Magicians.

And this includes Gods who "identify as" mage. Hormone treatments or not, once omnipotence kicks in it gives a Being a definite and permanent advantage. (And Beingness even more of one.)

As Above so Below; as Horizontally, so Vertically.

 

[Ziran]

Whose God, though? Heck, one of my neighbors as a little kid got pissed at my mom saying that Protestants and Catholics pray to the same God. I guess Neighbor Tilly's Catholic one was supposed to be badder-assed that my Mom's whey and curds Protestant one. Then you got Gods like Abrazix who ignore the entire created universe, Azathoth who's crazy-ass mad, so the answer "God" is simply too unsprcific.

"Whose God, though?"

You still seem to be interpretting the word "God" as a theological position. I clearly stated it is not. The examples I gave from Information Technology and Music are not theological positions. "Clapton is God" is not a theological position. The "Domain Admin is God" is not a theological position.

"the answer "God" is simply too unspecific."

The "God" rank was specifically defined in my first reply to the thread: "They can do whatever, whenever, effortlessly." You know this, because, you replied that this is unfair.

It's lazy of the other guy to glibly bring in an entity whose existence is problematic

"It's lazy..."

It's not lazy. It's all-inclusive and omnipotent. That's the highest possible rank for any magician. As a magician attains higher and higher their capabilities can be described in more and more general terms. When they begin their journey, their skill-set will be extremely limited and specific. As they advance it will become more general and less specific. At the top of the hierarchy, the tippy-top, it's not a point like the top of a mountain. It's an endless pool of possibility which can be executed whenever, wherever, effortlessly.

It might seem like a lazy answer because it's absolutely general, but, it's not lazy. I've thought about this before.

Think of it as a taxonomy chart. The highest rank would be, like I wrote, "root". The root of the taxonomy table is an all-inclusive absolutely general conglomerate ( a category of categories ). But in order to conceptualize it, it's not a "root" like a "point" or a "dot". It's an all-inclusive "cloud". Eventhough on paper it looks like a triangle or a pyramid, what's actually happening is flipped.

The rank "God" describes this attainment perfectly assuming that the reader can depart from the theological baggage.

 

[Xenophon]

"Whose God, though?"

You still seem to be interpretting the word "God" as a theological position. I clearly stated it is not. The examples I gave from Information Technology and Music are not theological positions. "Clapton is God" is not a theological position. The "Domain Admin is God" is not a theological position.

"the answer "God" is simply too unspecific."

The "God" rank was specifically defined in my first reply to the thread: "They can do whatever, whenever, effortlessly." You know this, because, you replied that this is unfair.

"It's lazy..."

It's not lazy. It's all-inclusive and omnipotent. That's the highest possible rank for any magician. As a magician attains higher and higher their capabilities can be described in more and more general terms. When they begin their journey, their skill-set will be extremely limited and specific. As they advance it will become more general and less specific. At the top of the hierarchy, the tippy-top, it's not a point like the top of a mountain. It's an endless pool of possibility which can be executed whenever, wherever, effortlessly.

It might seem like a lazy answer because it's absolutely general, but, it's not lazy. I've thought about this before.

Think of it as a taxonomy chart. The highest rank would be, like I wrote, "root". The root of the taxonomy table is an all-inclusive absolutely general conglomerate ( a category of categories ). But in order to conceptualize it, it's not a "root" like a "point" or a "dot". It's an all-inclusive "cloud". Eventhough on paper it looks like a triangle or a pyramid, what's actually happening is flipped.

The rank "God" describes this attainment perfectly assuming that the reader can depart from the theological baggage.

Post automatically merged: Nov 9, 2023

"Whose God, though?"

You still seem to be interpretting the word "God" as a theological position. I clearly stated it is not. The examples I gave from Information Technology and Music are not theological positions. "Clapton is God" is not a theological position. The "Domain Admin is God" is not a theological position.

"the answer "God" is simply too unspecific."

The "God" rank was specifically defined in my first reply to the thread: "They can do whatever, whenever, effortlessly." You know this, because, you replied that this is unfair.

"It's lazy..."

It's not lazy. It's all-inclusive and omnipotent. That's the highest possible rank for any magician. As a magician attains higher and higher their capabilities can be described in more and more general terms. When they begin their journey, their skill-set will be extremely limited and specific. As they advance it will become more general and less specific. At the top of the hierarchy, the tippy-top, it's not a point like the top of a mountain. It's an endless pool of possibility which can be executed whenever, wherever, effortlessly.

It might seem like a lazy answer because it's absolutely general, but, it's not lazy. I've thought about this before.

Think of it as a taxonomy chart. The highest rank would be, like I wrote, "root". The root of the taxonomy table is an all-inclusive absolutely general conglomerate ( a category of categories ). But in order to conceptualize it, it's not a "root" like a "point" or a "dot". It's an all-inclusive "cloud". Eventhough on paper it looks like a triangle or a pyramid, what's actually happening is flipped.

The rank "God" describes this attainment perfectly assuming that the reader can depart from the theological baggage.

Your definition of "God" is question-begging. You posit a being/force that can do all effortlessly. There is at best highly equivocal evidence for any such being. Say Agrippa was the butt-kickingest mage and I can check up on the assertion. To say your so-called definition of God is, and I can only smile indulgently at the remark's vacuity. I mean, I could say that the REAL Mage here is Anti-God who limits what your God can do and even think. Since your God never even suspects what MY Anti-God forbids him, the latter must be the bigger mage. In fact, both posited beings are asinine if argued for in earnest, though either will do for a sarcastic remark.

 

[Malachas Ivernus]

"If you have to ask, you wouldn't know it anyway".
It's something I've heard from others regarding other subjects, but I think it applies here too.

I'm sure that-and if they even exist-a top tier Magician would never be so identifiable by just anybody.You would probably have to "be on top" too in order to recognize them.
Most likely they would seem like an ordinary person at first glance, but once you interacted with them and spoke with them you would feel their confidence in themselves and in their art(s) and they would feel otherworldly and cool(for a lack of a better term).You would feel like you have a lot to learn from them.

Rule of thumb: If someone feels the need to claim something, they aren't it.
Those that are don't feel the need to claim it.

@Taudefindi I think all of this is pretty on-the-money.
Even the fact of being concerned about "Who is the Most Powerful?" speaks of ... not being it (no shade, @Pyrokar, I think it's a really interesting question : but those Magicians I've come across who are constantly concerned with power and status and comparing themselves to others ... They tend to be pretty lame).

Just as @Taudefindi says above, those who loudly claim their superiority, or who are always trying to jockey for status and clout, they tend to be fundamentally pretty insecure and full of bluster; at first glance they may appear powerful or influential, but that's only because they surround themselves with Yes-Folks and lackeys, and they are all constantly trying to shore up their unstable hierarchy.

A really badass Magician just ... doesn't really care about that stuff. They don't try to show off, or to appear powerful; but when you actually interact with them, if you have the Subtle Senses switched on, you can usually see a sort of quiet power just radiating off them. I also think that the Great Mages are often also humble, generous, patient, wise. You know. Good teachers, if you manage to convince them to teach you. Think of Ogion the Silent, in A Wizard of Earthsea (which is a great handbook for how to get from "Arrogant Young Apprentice" to "Sadder, Wiser, and More Balanced Adept").

There's another side too: the Great Wizards often do have a kind of showmanship (like Crowley, as someone pointed out), but it's not about bullying or glamour, exactly. It's more of a Trickster Energy. Think of Merlin, or Gandalf, or Yoda : often, those who meet them think at first that they're crazy old men ; they are humorous, silly, trolling, subversive. It's only later that they reveal that they are Beings of Shining Power. But at first, they just seem daft and addled. This is a very useful form of Invisibility : it allows you to be super weird, but everyone just thinks you're "eccentric" ... They have no idea who you are when you get SERIOUS. And that is good, because it leads everyone into a false sense of security, into a sense that you are harmless and can be dismissed casually. This is how the Great Wizards hide in plain sight, if you ask me. They may show off, but it's always in a very self-aware and self-ironic way. It keeps everyone guessing.

Anyway, that's my Two Pence.

 

[Pyrokar]

The whole mightiest of the mages shtick was just to open up the subject. I don't see how
people are immediatly linking that to me trying to edgelord or pull God into it but if it gets you typing it's fine.
like, when did i claim superiority?

Im glad you mentioned Merlin though, it's been a hot minute since i thought about him and that's a shame
especially since i studied a bit of the Arhurian mythos in college. The rest was already brought up in previous replies and i agree.

Ogion the silent eh? i'll look it up sounds like a good inspiration

Crowley def. didn't build on anything that impressive, he was the wickedest man alive if that's not trying to appear powerful then idk
neither was he playing crazy, he wanted all to know how smart he was. (granted in the literary sense he really was a genius)
I would throw Anton Lavey in that mix as well

ah, see you do have a concern about who is powerful after all. I like the trickster Magician archetype as well. But i will add
that is a part of their strategy as well not merely an act they like to do, thus we should group it under a sort of glamour.

For clarification - the biggest boogeyman about the magician in times past was weather control, i was surprised to find that out
since of course magick is much more adaptable, but if you think about it...
Bad weather - bad crops - dead cattle - no food. Not quite as big bang as a fireball to the face but yeah, its legit.
They used to scare villagers with draught n shit. This was the original thought in my head when i started, due to the subversive element.
Since i expected literally anything but weather control to be considered as some of the strongest examples.
Snapping yourfingers and Thanos-ing someone isn't quite as dreadful as slowly rotting away with your entire bloodline for
whatever insult or disrespect tossed carelessly.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

I guess there is the occult police or three chiefs within the Golden Dawn, that can strip a mage of power, or worse when they dabble in the other side.
I've had it occur.
I've seen the sky dappled with crows nearly bringing on a seizure due to the flight patterns and the cawing of at least a hundred crows after backsliding from the GD.
I then remembered the part from Liber Israfel of the two hawks who sit up on their pinnacles and called them, only to see two incoming hawks making the crows flee in a straight line trickle.
Made weather change upon will? Once or twice at least.
Attempted an exorcism and failed.
The esoteric can be very tricky.

 

[Pyrokar]

In kinder...kindergarten? the place where toddlers go to fake school.
i remember we used to roll a piece of red string in a glass in the dark, god knows why.
But i also remember watching thunderclouds roll in and trying to guess the proper magick command
to shoot it. It was quite an event, im pretty sure i had at least 4-5 strikes with just made up words.
Perhaps this is something i should invest some time into..... thanks for the flashback Diluculo

Edit holy shit there is such a thing as divination by storm/thunder. how fkin epic is that?

Post automatically merged: Nov 9, 2023

"Will I win the lottery!?!?"
Thundercrashes
"Nice."

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

I read this once and came back to read it again in case id misread it.
Was just being honest.
Note to self .. don't throw pearls before swine.

 

[Pyrokar]

ah. the language barrier got me good then.
That makes me the swine i suppose? and you the pearl dispenser????
I admit i still don't quite understand where the conversation took a turn for the insults, i was under the impression we were on friendly terms.
But for what it's worth, i apologize to have insulted you so terribly. It was not my intention.

Off i go doing swine things, happy pearl gathering

 

[Vandheer]

Where is this thread going

 

[Xenophon]

@Taudefindi I think all of this is pretty on-the-money.
Even the fact of being concerned about "Who is the Most Powerful?" speaks of ... not being it (no shade, @Pyrokar, I think it's a really interesting question : but those Magicians I've come across who are constantly concerned with power and status and comparing themselves to others ... They tend to be pretty lame).

Just as @Taudefindi says above, those who loudly claim their superiority, or who are always trying to jockey for status and clout, they tend to be fundamentally pretty insecure and full of bluster; at first glance they may appear powerful or influential, but that's only because they surround themselves with Yes-Folks and lackeys, and they are all constantly trying to shore up their unstable hierarchy.

A really badass Magician just ... doesn't really care about that stuff. They don't try to show off, or to appear powerful; but when you actually interact with them, if you have the Subtle Senses switched on, you can usually see a sort of quiet power just radiating off them. I also think that the Great Mages are often also humble, generous, patient, wise. You know. Good teachers, if you manage to convince them to teach you. Think of Ogion the Silent, in A Wizard of Earthsea (which is a great handbook for how to get from "Arrogant Young Apprentice" to "Sadder, Wiser, and More Balanced Adept").

There's another side too: the Great Wizards often do have a kind of showmanship (like Crowley, as someone pointed out), but it's not about bullying or glamour, exactly. It's more of a Trickster Energy. Think of Merlin, or Gandalf, or Yoda : often, those who meet them think at first that they're crazy old men ; they are humorous, silly, trolling, subversive. It's only later that they reveal that they are Beings of Shining Power. But at first, they just seem daft and addled. This is a very useful form of Invisibility : it allows you to be super weird, but everyone just thinks you're "eccentric" ... They have no idea who you are when you get SERIOUS. And that is good, because it leads everyone into a false sense of security, into a sense that you are harmless and can be dismissed casually. This is how the Great Wizards hide in plain sight, if you ask me. They may show off, but it's always in a very self-aware and self-ironic way. It keeps everyone guessing.

Anyway, that's my Two Pence.

Superb post.

Like the old fashoned martial artists used to teach, the true master seems to know nothing. Deon Fortune said something similar in taking a swipe at ol' 666, The Beast, our dear Mr. Crowley.

As an aside, showmanship can and does miscarry. Just yesterday I read that Crowley introduced himself to a young Austin Osman Spare saying, "I am God's deputy on Earth." Replied Spare, "You look like an Italian ponce out of work."

Post automatically merged: Nov 10, 2023

ah. the language barrier got me good then.
That makes me the swine i suppose? and you the pearl dispenser????
I admit i still don't quite understand where the conversation took a turn for the insults, i was under the impression we were on friendly terms.
But for what it's worth, i apologize to have insulted you so terribly. It was not my intention.

Off i go doing swine things, happy pearl gathering

Meet the other's sword with your shield, not your neck. Never apologize if you're not aware of wherein the alleged offense lies. I like Diluculo's style and his posts, but still the apology habit can be as deadly as cigarettes and Fentanyl Fridays. There are people out there, entire demographics, who made a habit of crucifying chronic apologizers. Guard your "I'm sorry" like a novice nun her virtue.

Post automatically merged: Nov 10, 2023

Where is this thread going

A good thread is like a museum trip. Its terminus is scarcely the point. One takes in the sights en route and maybe receives edification.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

ah. the language barrier got me good then.
That makes me the swine i suppose? and you the pearl dispenser????
I admit i still don't quite understand where the conversation took a turn for the insults, i was under the impression we were on friendly terms.
But for what it's worth, i apologize to have insulted you so terribly. It was not my intention.

Off i go doing swine things, happy pearl gathering

No worries. I'm still searching for pearls myself. I have a regular habit of needing salt for my foot.
On the brighter side ... Perhaps the cloud divination comes to us early in life as we still have as children a grasp on true spirituality.
I will likewise share on apologies, I was a bit tired yet without excuse flew off the handle.
Ya know, perhaps children really do have it right. Much like cats they see and hear things for a few years that adults don't.
Perhaps it's why Christ upheld children as being closer to God, as they aren't choked on concerns of the world.
Agree with @Vandheer .. let's keep on topic.

 

[Ziran]

You posit a being/force that can do all effortlessly.

I'm not positing anything of the sort. It is a theoretical ranking.

I could say that the REAL Mage here is Anti-God who limits what your God can do

It is not "my God". It is a title, a ranking, an attainment. If there is a magician who can do whatever, whenever, effortlessly they would not be limited by an "anti-god". If they could be limited by an "anti-god", then they would not have attained the highest rank.

 

[Xenophon]

I'm not positing anything of the sort. It is a theoretical ranking.



It is not "my God". It is a title, a ranking, an attainment. If there is a magician who can do whatever, whenever, effortlessly they would not be limited by an "anti-god". If they could be limited by an "anti-god", then they would not have attained the highest rank.

Life is too short to continue this asinine exchange.