[Opinion] Why do you prefer demons?

[Ziran]

"He who is strongly discouraged is never really accepted." My ol' college prof said that, Ross N. Ferrater.

The conversion is discouraged. The convert is treasured. They are considered as if they are a long lost sibling returning home.

If it's not genetic, how does one "trace oneself back" to that exodus? Sounds like a fashion statement. I "identify as" X, so I must "be" X.

Asking the question in that way makes me wonder if you would appreciate the answer.

Judaism asserts that everything is body and soul with only one exception. Genetics are "body" they establish tribal affiliation. Judah, Levi, Reuven, Simeon, Asher, Dan, etc... Being jewish is a quality of the "soul" not body. It is what processes the mitzvos ( commandments ) given "in the wilderness" at "sinai" into virtues or demerits. If the soul is not jewish, then these commandments are meaningless. That's, in part, the important point my new friend @Caliban is making.

The indicator that a soul is jewish is that is delivered via a jewish womb or if an individual will not let anything stop them from completing a conversion per jewish law. Delivery via the jewish womb is the most common.

Time and space and genetics are material qualities. The soul is not limited by any of that. The exodus is on-going. The sinai event is on-going. Each and every jewish soul is simultaneously leaving mitzrayim ( egypt ) and receiving the torah ( teachings and laws ) bamidbar ( in wilderness ) always and forever. It is being engraved on us.

That is how one traces themself back to an exodus from egypt. It's shedding the levushim ( garments ) of the soul.

 

[Caliban]

If the soul is not jewish, then these commandments are meaningless. That's, in part, the important point my new friend Caliban is making.

Oh, the Covenant, the Law and the Prophets, are full of meaning, history, and thousands of years of careful reflection on what it is to be human. Buit the specifics of "this way, not that" are no more appropriate to my practice than, say, the gift of white sage, cedar, sweetgrass and tobacco to Indigenous peoples from White Buffalo Woman or Wakan Tanka or whomever.

My ancestry is Pan-European, plus a few foundlings married in along the way. Biblically, scripturally - but also aesthetically, instinctively - I am the "other people," as dear old Oberon Zell put it, when sitting down with doorstep missionaries for a chat.

My first teacher, in fact, did become a convert to Judaism - the whole careful, formal process. I also know many, many more Jewish folks who have since become religiously Pagan, while remaining culturally Jewish, citing ample precedent for it being a things Jews do.

Demons, or daemons, or daimons are a big subject though. And veneration need not be understood as abdication of autonomy. Which is a conflation I have seen in this and related threads. I'm just being neighborly with the Unseen. Or integrating all my own diverse drives and impulses - whichever way one wants to look at it.

 

[Ziran]

If the soul is not jewish, then these commandments are meaningless.

... those commandments. The ones given at "sinai" in the "wilderness" departing from "egypt".

the specifics of "this way, not that" are no more appropriate to my practice

The commandments which perscribe "this way" and prohibit "that way" are precisely what I was referring to.

the Covenant, the Law and the Prophets, are full of meaning, history, and thousands of years of careful reflection on what it is to be human.

Agreed. I would describe those as teachings not commandments.

things Jews do

That's the entire tanach... what we do, is often not good. But we have potential.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

I see the points .. I do.

The number one fallacy is that everyone believes what im putting out there .. belief in the OT and NT.

The number two fallacy is that it's the only religion .. or twins as it were.

The number three fallacy is that demons are out to destroy humans for fun, spite, hatred, or duty.

The number four fallacy is that we are to exercise control over them, and not give in to the temptations from Satan.

The number five fallacy is that the Goetia descriptions and text are correct.

It doesn't explain everything however.
Fact: Catholic clergy have done successful exorcisms following their procedure and process.

Fact: Goetia descriptions state that certain ones fell from "heaven". Such as Belial.

Fact: Careful reading of the OT and NT name several demons from the Goetia.

Semi Fact: Stars are equivalent to angels in the OT and NT.

Semi Fact: At least one demonolator undergoing Qlippothic initiations stated that the names were authentic, that the temperament is not that every demon is positive toward us.

It seems to me, after discussion with a Hoodoo practitioner and a Shaman both state that my beliefs about spirits are wrong and that they reach out to us, and we should be cordial with them.
So I don't really know what to think.
However as a Christian, my beliefs are pretty well established.

 

[Caliban]

But none of that is fact like General Relativity is fact, or the Pythagorean Theorem is fact.

I don't doubt others believe the experiences they have had, or the explanations they create to rationalize them.

But that's irrelevant to my own lived experience and practice of magic.

It also is astoundingly disrespectful toward billions of human beings with complex, nuanced, deep spiritual experience of non-monotheistic religion, non-theistic religion or no religion at all, whom you cannot just wave off as somehow not counting toward the overall human experience.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Well, my apologies to any disrespected, not my intent. And you are correct, facts are subjective in certain circles.

 

[Ziran]

we should be cordial with them.

Cordial is the difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable.

Post automatically merged: Nov 20, 2023

It also is astoundingly disrespectful toward billions of human beings

On the other hand, exclusion from the abrahamic umbrella/net is a form of respect. Respect and reverence requires seperation and division.

Good fences make good neighbors <---> good neighbors make good fences.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Non abrahamic religions aside, and as a former student of religion and anthropology, I get it, other religions exist in the world. But I'm not referring to them, not in most regards.
Question: why are Astarte, Belial, Satan, Lucifer (sp?) Qlippothic and mentioned ,in the Goetia? Was Crowley a non JCI kinda guy? Why did Barrett and Agrippa write on demons and several others with remarkably close images of each?
I know other regions and religions exist.
I got a Fuck You message from someone I barely if at all know, so I'm a tad grumpy this morning.
Forgive any disrespect. The emphasis is on and regarding JCI demons.
If you like demons, fine by me..just wondering why...in matters temporal vs eternal.

 

[Xenophon]

But none of that is fact like General Relativity is fact, or the Pythagorean Theorem is fact.

I don't doubt others believe the experiences they have had, or the explanations they create to rationalize them.

But that's irrelevant to my own lived experience and practice of magic.

It also is astoundingly disrespectful toward billions of human beings with complex, nuanced, deep spiritual experience of non-monotheistic religion, non-theistic religion or no religion at all, whom you cannot just wave off as somehow not counting toward the overall human experience.

Billions are disrespectful of me, too. I can live with that and little sweat, unless they come at me with handcuffs, or RPG's. Disagreement is part of the human experience and anyone who NEEDS my approval to get by sails in desperate straits indeed. Like ol' Empedocles taught, strife is as needful to the cosmos as harmony. Let the bestest win. The only people who who call for equality or toleration are those in decline or those still unsure of their powers. The rest of us get on with it.

Post automatically merged: Nov 24, 2023

Cordial is the difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable.

Post automatically merged: Nov 20, 2023

On the other hand, exclusion from the abrahamic umbrella/net is a form of respect. Respect and reverence requires seperation and division.

Good fences make good neighbors <---> good neighbors make good fences.

Historically, the landlord was the guy who busted down your fences and built his own round your neighbor's land and yours. It's called the "Bandit Theory of Government's Origins"

 

[William66]

why do you, knowing this, continue to follow demons?

Hello
I think it is more like "favours", you do this in exchange for this and that,

ofcourse there will be follow ups after months if the demon hasnt delivered yet, but i would not say "following" them.
And demons are more to the material world, i think it could be the case why people works with them.

Lets say Archangel Anael can give you shield against them as protection, but what is the chance that Anael will help you with a job? If that makes sense. I think that is why people turn to demons when it comes to material stuff. Interesting topic, i will read further for sure!

 

[Caliban]

Well, my apologies to any disrespected, not my intent. And you are correct, facts are subjective in certain circles.

No, they are not. That's what makes them factual. Religion isn't.

 

[Xenophon]

Oh, the Covenant, the Law and the Prophets, are full of meaning, history, and thousands of years of careful reflection on what it is to be human. Buit the specifics of "this way, not that" are no more appropriate to my practice than, say, the gift of white sage, cedar, sweetgrass and tobacco to Indigenous peoples from White Buffalo Woman or Wakan Tanka or whomever.

My ancestry is Pan-European, plus a few foundlings married in along the way. Biblically, scripturally - but also aesthetically, instinctively - I am the "other people," as dear old Oberon Zell put it, when sitting down with doorstep missionaries for a chat.

My first teacher, in fact, did become a convert to Judaism - the whole careful, formal process. I also know many, many more Jewish folks who have since become religiously Pagan, while remaining culturally Jewish, citing ample precedent for it being a things Jews do.

Demons, or daemons, or daimons are a big subject though. And veneration need not be understood as abdication of autonomy. Which is a conflation I have seen in this and related threads. I'm just being neighborly with the Unseen. Or integrating all my own diverse drives and impulses - whichever way one wants to look at it.

Being a chameleon is praiseworthy? I allus reckoned duplicity was duplicity and "ample precedent" evidence of shamelessness in one's lineage. Scarcely the kind of thing I'd parade publicly.

Post automatically merged: Nov 25, 2023

No, they are not. That's what makes them factual. Religion isn't.

Religion is not factual? If fire falls from heaven and devours myself, a humble prophet of Baal, I'd call that tending toward the factual.

I'd say religious questions are damned hard to adjudicate is all.

 

[ipsychonaut2]

Knowing that demons are real and fallen from the grace of Yahovah and Yeheshuah, and that Shem angels may or may not be his loyal ones (Lucifer masquerades as one), why do you, knowing this, continue to follow demons?
No judgement call here, just curious.

In my experience most commonly the thing people believe are demons are actually false spirits of unknown origin leeching off the stimulation of an individual's mind body capacity and energy and power. Before I was incarnate or I guess better said while I was on leave from my incarnate vessel I was taken by Satan and introduced to many of his demons. My understanding is that if you don't show any insubordination or disrespect and don't laugh or try to show humor, they'll treat you with respect. But there's a sort of hyper literal interpretation with some of them so for anything that might be perceived as disrespect or any attempt to encourage them to lose their composure with humor will not be received well. I had to give a bunch of my corpses which are scattered throughout space from when I was trying to find my way back to Earth but somebody hacked my agency, Jesus Christ did it, and he made all my parameters change which my system was based entirely on numerology but wasn't designed to deal with cosmic and celestial domains so the handler for that environment played dumb about everything I tried to communicate to it so I basically tried so many times to use numbers alone to get back to worth but space here is 2D and 3D at the same time and is also 9Dot-E cubed vector space realized through the 10th dimension and the 12DYNAMIC‽OA

... and that's the emoji story of how a the soul that made space was made.

 

[Vandheer]

What the Jesus in cross fuck did you just post my man?

 

[Lemongrass00]

I was taken by Satan and introduced to many of his demons

That was awfully nice of him, I’ve heard he’s shorter in person…

 

[Saint]

TL;DR
We have a lot in common and similar interests. I feel comfortable communicating and working with them. I'm not worshipping or following demons, but I like to have them in my life the same way I did in my previous lives. Unlike my brother, who was afraid of them when they appeared (since our childhood), I already felt good in their presence. I can relate to them.​

---

Humans often prefer to keep themselves away from reality (nowadays, we can face this on excessive levels), including their own personality, insecurities, identity, values, actions (and their consequences), etc. People are afraid of things they can not understand or control (events, other beings or even themselves).

If I compare the common descriptions of angels and demons, I can say that demons are more human-like than angels. I see people with more so-called "demonic" traits than "angelic" traits, it feels more "real" to many, therefore more relatable. We are not black and white. Demons AND angels are not black and white, either. I'm not religious, and I rarely base anything on religious scripts, but if I want to refer to those, angels did 'nasty' things as well. It's just how we prefer to erase, twist, and turn reality or information we consider truth until the result pleases us.
​

Demons - as described - are generally harsh, stern, ruthless, intelligent, manipulative, obsessive, sadistic, charismatic, charming, and violent (I highlighted the features that are more common in higher ranking demons' case). They live in a different dimension, in a strict hierarchy, under different laws, that obviously influences how they approach each other, humans, themselves, or their desires and needs (you can observe the same with humans in different society, culture etc.).
Do not misunderstand me! Each of them has their unique personality, nature, strong suits, interests, values, worldview, and way of treating others and exerting their power.

[ Why do I find them pleasing as a company or more attractive? ]

I had a rough life, with no care, protection, safety or love involved. It taught me how to get out of problems and dangers alone. Because of how life and people treated me, I don't need these caring, loving lessons or protection. Why? It's because as proved, these were all unnecessary for me to grow and function, evolve, and I "outgrew" the need for these from others. Therefore, I'm not afraid of demons' nature in general, and they have what I "need" (―I don't, but I'm chosing them anyway), what I've got, and what I'm willing to take after all those experiences. it made it easier to understand them, handle their nature well, and enjoy their company, as we are similar.

Their and my nature are very similar - take it as you will - which makes them even more pleasant company for me. I generally got treated very well and I got along with all of them so far. I think every person has a preferred type of "community" or "group of people" they like to be a part of or surrounded by, and for me, demons fall into this category.

I love their intelligence, their knowledge, their nature, how abrupt and powerful they can be, how harsh and stern they are, their humor, their creativity (especially when things comes to sadism), and the way they express different emotions (they can be caring, attentive, protective and patient too). They're fascinating, and while I'm working with angels and involved in cleansing and healing, I have no plan to close them out of my life ― Interestingly enough, despite what kind of blessings or help people get from me, I have no empathy towards them or sympathy, in a matter of fact my mind is more sadistic and violent than peaceful and benevolent. I do it because I can. Call it harsh or cruel, but blaming me for the lack of emotions is blaming any God you believe in.​

 

[Roma]

Demons and angels seems a very binary system to me.

What if there were more categories/colors than dark and light?

For example, humans are often hard to classify as only good or only bad.

Further, do binary frames of reference make it harder to perceive what is Real?

 

[Saint]

You compare demons and angels to each other. It's easy to say that "yes, it is black and white" because they are simply different. They live in a different dimension, a different society with different laws and morals. Even humanity's morals have changed a lot in the past years when violence towards each other was ordinary, justified, and accepted. For a long time, we didn't consider other living beings as sentient beings, and they were vulnerable to our brutality (still are, it is just less accepted nowadays), yet we never considered ourselves evil. Humans were sure that we had every right to harm other beings (even each other) simply because we were above them one way or another. You don't have to go back in history to see it on a very large scale.
[ Oh, and let's mention how common rape and murder is in the case of deities. Yet we don't necessarily categorize them "black and white" either, in spite there are so many of them, that they can be considered as a "group of spirits". Pretty much, we can make things as simple as this, to the point where it loses its point and credibility. ]

Back to demons and angels. If you compare individuals of the same kind to each other, you would get the same result as you got in the case of humans. Yes, all of them (and us) have different personalities, natures, values, morals, etc., but on a large scale, we can only be "categorized" according to numbers and rates.

You can tell humanity is only black, but that would not be true. You can lie that humanity is only white, but that would be incorrect, too. The same goes for demons. Most demons don't care about humans to the point they don't even visit the human world. How do you want to categorize demons who never harmed people?

It's almost as if you'd judge humanity based on what you see on the internet. Usually, the wildest, stupidest, brain-rotten things go viral and you can see social media platforms flooded with the shame of humanity. You may think, based on the amount of idiot content posted left and right, that most people are like that because you see them more often than normal people, but this does not cover reality. Some people are just louder than others.

Demons are no exception. People can judge what they experience only, but again, most demons never bother to even think about people, let alone spending the energy on coming here to do whatever help them sleep at night. Same way as most people never bother about dealing with demons.​

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

You compare demons and angels to each other. It's easy to say that "yes, it is black and white" because they are simply different. They live in a different dimension, a different society with different laws and morals. Even humanity's morals have changed a lot in the past years when violence towards each other was ordinary, justified, and accepted. For a long time, we didn't consider other living beings as sentient beings, and they were vulnerable to our brutality (still are, it is just less accepted nowadays), yet we never considered ourselves evil. Humans were sure that we had every right to harm other beings (even each other) simply because we were above them one way or another. You don't have to go back in history to see it on a very large scale.
[ Oh, and let's mention how common rape and murder is in the case of deities. Yet we don't necessarily categorize them "black and white" either, in spite there are so many of them, that they can be considered as a "group of spirits". Pretty much, we can make things as simple as this, to the point where it loses its point and credibility. ]

Back to demons and angels. If you compare individuals of the same kind to each other, you would get the same result as you got in the case of humans. Yes, all of them (and us) have different personalities, natures, values, morals, etc., but on a large scale, we can only be "categorized" according to numbers and rates.

You can tell humanity is only black, but that would not be true. You can lie that humanity is only white, but that would be incorrect, too. The same goes for demons. Most demons don't care about humans to the point they don't even visit the human world. How do you want to categorize demons who never harmed people?

It's almost as if you'd judge humanity based on what you see on the internet. Usually, the wildest, stupidest, brain-rotten things go viral and you can see social media platforms flooded with the shame of humanity. You may think, based on the amount of idiot content posted left and right, that most people are like that because you see them more often than normal people, but this does not cover reality. Some people are just louder than others.

Demons are no exception. People can judge what they experience only, but again, most demons never bother to even think about people, let alone spending the energy on coming here to do whatever help them sleep at night. Same way as most people never bother about dealing with demons.​

You make some very good points indeed.
Again, not making judgement calls, although it was always odd to me how people call goetA or goetB ancient gods (which they may very well have been or worshipped as such), while in the Goetia they are referred to as being created after Lucifer, or were of such an order of angels.
Ads to this direct representation of star systems resembling the portraits made by Agrippa and Barrett, who likewise make comparisons to them from specific angel orders.
Now, my beliefs are well known so I have a bias, even against Yahweh (Canaanite storm God) vs Yah/Yahovah (my estimation of the correct name).
Nonetheless, very good points are made.

 

[Shaman]

My spirit is demonic leaning and got me in to the occult and black magick. So really I do prefer angels and right hand path but I am respecting my spirit.